Talk:Stotting/Archive 1

Archive 1

Merge completed

Have merged from pronk (gait). I didn't merge all material, as some seemed dubious and the reference given was online and is now a dead link. Richard001 08:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Clarification Requested

Request for clarification: Several times in the article, negative attributes are ascribed to stotting like 'maladaptive' and 'handicap' without enough explanation. Please, make it clear how stotting is NOT good.

Verdesinistra (talk) 00:57, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

It slows the stotter down, hindering its escape from its enemy. The handicap principle explains why it isn't maladaptive. Richard001 (talk) 08:04, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

"Five hypotheses" - but...

...none of them include the "form of play" idea, which is mentioned in the lead. So surely there must be more than five. That the whole section has only one reference (and that just to a book, rather than a specific page/chapter) doesn't help. 31.52.47.97 (talk) 16:46, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Good suggestion. I've come up with ten (at least), and quite a few more citations. To be fair, the key citations were already in the article. Hope it's a bit clearer now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:05, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I think the explanations: 4 and 5, and also 6 and 7 are similar enough to merge.

I think they're fundamentally the same ideas, just said in a different way. 4 and 5 are the same with the addition of coordination in the 4th reason, so I would mention "coordination" as a possible add-on in one explanation.

I would think also that 6 is better merged with 7 because in both the behaviour is useless also except as a signal. The difference here is the add-on of slowdown in the 7th. They are both signal theory.

Should they be merged as the same idea with variations of the details?Anonywiki (talk) 01:25, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I've merged 4 and 5; don't agree on reflection that 6 and 7 are identical, Zahavi is a distinct (and probably wrong) variant of signalling theory (we can believe the honest signal bit without agreeing to handicap races). Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:15, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Rewrite of explanations

I felt that some of the explanations could be a little clearer and the hypothesis moved to the beginning of the para rather than hidden in the text, and given highlighting. So, I have rewritten the section but post it here on Talk first for discussion before making such a large edit My re-draft is

Possible explanations

Stotting makes a prey animal more visible and uses up energy and time that could be spent escaping. Therefore, it must bring some benefit to the animal performing the behavior. A number of possible explanations have been proposed for stotting. Stotting may be -

1. A good means of rapid escape or jumping over obstructions. However, this cannot be true in Thomson's gazelles because these prey animals do not stot when a predator is less than approximately 40 m away.
2. An anti-ambush behavior; animals living in tall grass may leap into the air to detect potential predators.
3. An alarm signal to other members of the herd that a predator is hazardously close thereby increasing the survival rate of the herd.
4. A socially cohesive behavior to escape predators by coordinated stotting, thereby making it more difficult for a predator to target any individual during an attack (much like the suggestion that zebra stripes cause motion dazzle).
5. An honest signal of the animal's fitness. Stotting could be a way of deterring pursuit by warning a predator of the animal's unsuitability as prey: the prey benefits by not being chased (because it is in fact very fit); the predator benefits by not wasting time chasing an animal it is unlikely to catch. This signalling theory explanation avoids the group selection connotations of the "alarm signal" and "socially cohesive" escape hypotheses.
6. An instance of Amotz Zahavi's handicap principle, whereby stotting is signalling to predators that the animal is so fit it can escape even if it deliberately slows itself down with some apparently useless behavior (i.e. stotting), just as the best horse in a handicap race is the one carrying the heaviest saddlebags.
7. A predator detection signal whereby the animal signals to the predator that it has been seen and therefore does not have the advantage of surprise. Many such signals exist in different groups of animals. Again, this would be an honest pursuit deterrence signal, benefiting the prey by not being chased (because it can be seen to be aware of the predator and ready to escape immediately) and benefitting the predator by not wasting time stalking prey when it has already been seen. Evidence for this hypothesis is that cheetahs abandon more hunts when their gazelle prey stots, and when they do give chase to a stotting gazelle, they are far less likely to make a kill. However, gazelles stot less often to cheetahs (which stalk and would therefore probably give up when detected) than to African wild dogs, which "course" (chase prey relentlessly, not relying on surprise).
8. A fitness display to potential mates in a sexual selection process rather than an antipredator adaptation.
9. Play, especially in young animals, which may help to prepare them for adult life. In favor of this hypothesis, stotting is sometimes observed in immature animals, however against the play hypothesis is that stotting is "generally" seen in adult prey responding to predators.

The English evolutionary biologist John Maynard Smith concludes that "the natural explanation is that stotting is an index of condition and of escape capability", used as a signal especially to coursing predators. He also observes that "it is hard to see how it could be a handicap", unless perhaps it is a signal to other gazelles of the same species. __DrChrissy (talk) 21:40, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

References

do bipeds stot?

An editor recently added that bipeds perform stotting. I can not think of an example of this. Can someone please provide an example. If a Biped leaps into the air, even if this is stiff-legged, surely this is "jumping" rather than "stotting". I think the statement that bipeds peform stotting needs a source.__DrChrissy (talk) 17:36, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

AFAIK, you're correct - stotting is a quadruped behavior, with the biped equivalent just being "jumping"/"hopping". Theoretically, it could be performed with more than 4 legs, but I'm not aware of any actual examples, so it may be a moot point. HCA (talk) 14:05, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Octopuses pick up coconut shells, hold them beneath their body and walk stiff-legged over the ocean floor in a behaviour call "stilting", but I don't think there are any records of 8-leggesd stotting!

-) __DrChrissy (talk) 17

34, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Removing number 10

I think 10 should be removed. Dawkins doesn't seem to be adding an explanation so much as endorsing one or a sub-section of the preceding nine explanations. Because of that, I think it may also add a level of authoritative bias. PedanticSophist (talk) 18:01, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree. I have been bold and removed it, but happy to discuss if others disagree.DrChrissy ^(talk) 18:12, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Also refers to the habit of seeking an unnecessarily complicated solution to a simple problem. Named after British mathematician and photographer Paul Stott.

This is a definition that has been used for some years in technical (aerospace) publications and is in common use in this community. Cookj651 (talk) 23:56, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source for this. DrChrissy ^(talk) 23:59, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Numerous technical papers including IEEE Aerospace Conference 2004 "Contrasting approaches to the validation of helicopter HUMS - a military user's perspective"

Cookj651 (talk) 00:19, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I am happy to put more work into the definition and the references Cookj651 (talk) 00:21, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Warm muscles?

Is it really true that no theorist has added "warm muscles" to the list of honest signals? I did see the term "energy expenditure". In biology, a minimum of 75% of energy expended goes out in heat (unless my memory is failing me). Back when I was doing high intensity training (not quite as intense as fleeing a cheetah) my performance easily went up by 10% in the third set over the first set, due to warm muscles or whatever you want to call it. In my own biology, it was not a small difference. — MaxEnt 06:02, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Well, this isn't a forum for discussing what scientists ought to do, but it's doubtful that warmth would be a visible signal for mammalian predators like lions. Vipers can detect infrared but only when the prey is warmer than the background. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:19, 29 November 2017 (UTC)