Talk:Stockbridge School

Let's hope this article is vastly improved upon.

Calamitybrook (talk) 03:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Herndon Virginia

Must be nice town.

Calamitybrook (talk) 01:25, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

additional, notable stockbridgists

I can confirm that the persons listed below did attend and graduate with the exception David Carradine.

ken edelin, ma - 1950s grad - author, "broken justice;" women's rights advocate; professor of obstetrics and gynecology

ben barber, ny - 1950s grad - "jihad vs mcworld" among others - esteemed author, poli sci speaker

tim barnett, ny - 1950s grad - vp, adirondack nature conservancy

ann brown (colonmous), ny - 1950s grad - nyc & east hampton - entrepreneur, host of annual 'wee chill weekends' (and older sister of stockbridgists nancy and the late ray brown)

susan copen (oken), ma - 1950s grad - photographer, stylist

richard nurse, nj - 1950s grad - educator, doo wop and harmony singer, crossroads theatre board member

david lithgow, ny/ma - 1950s grad - aviator, faa whiz kid

steve morse, ca - 1950s grad - martketing/sales gps entrepreneur, car, m/c, tether car collector, racer

paul clark (zeke), w/dc - 1950s grad - retired, bon vivant crossword puzzlist

mitch berken, l.i., ny - 1950s grad - yachtsman, world traveler

bob margueloff, ca - renown music mixer (depeche mode, et al)

david carradine, ca (dec.) legend has it that he had something to do with burning down the barn —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adambrower (talk • contribs) 22:44, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

76.89.202.31 (talk) 01:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)bevgiiw2@aol

A) Can any of these people be confirmed by secondary sources to have attended Stockbridge? B) Are any of those who pass A) notable by wikipedia standards? If not then it's all anecdote and trivia and shouldn't be inserted into an article that's already a mess. Wlmg (talk) 01:18, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I've sourced Benjamin Barber. --Orlady (talk) 20:42, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Unless there was another school in Stockbridge named "Stockbridge Academy," with an educational philosophy similar to that of the Stockbridge School, I believe that David Carradine did attend Stockbridge School for one year. "Stockbridge Academy" is listed in several bios: see [1] and [2]. Also, if you search for "Stockbridge" in the Google Books entry for his autobiographical book "Endless Highway", you can see snippets about the "fabulous" school in Stockbridge, "run by UNESCO," and located on a lake that froze over in the winter. The actual book probably would be even more informative. However, all of those details are generally consistent with Stockbridge School. Additionally, this long interview-based newspaper feature story tells about his year about Stockbridge Academy, and its being a "school designed to cope with young rebels." --Orlady (talk) 18:18, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Here we go with conflation again Carradine likely saw the U.N. flag flying over the campus and made an improper deduction later in life. As for academy perhaps that's more conflation as he went to so many boarding and reform schools.Wlmg (talk) 18:58, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

"Designed to cope with brilliant rebels", the DeSisto School used similar language. Hans like DeSisto had his early students sleeping on cots and performing heavy manual labor, making decisions by consensus over which he had absolute veto power. Alums generally agree the academic program was pretty poor. Same as the DeSisto School Deja vu anyone? Maeder and DeSisto spent quite a bit of time with eachother, and both had an autocratic dare I say dictatorial management style. Perhaps the two schools had more in common than later historians would like to admit.Wlmg (talk) 18:43, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

The Great Fire

The fire occurred ~1955. From the Stockbridge School FB page "I went to Stockbridge School 1948 - 1977", where I posted an Aerial photo (showing the barn in proximity to the house) of the Hanna Estate prior to becoming the school, looks to be empty as fences (delimiting a racing oval) are dilapidated. Here is a comment from one of the Alumni in that group, upon seeing the photo:

Michael Weller:

The building in the back was there when Hans and Ruth bought the property. It was the boy's dorm, a gym and faculty apartments. It burned to the ground in January of, I believe, 1955.

Those of us who were students at the time (I was, just turned 13) remember at lunchtime in the main house someone came into the dining room and told us there was a fire in the barn.

We crowded against the dining room window and watched the fired spread almost instantaneously from a small blaze to a roaring inferno that turned the building into a heap before lunch was finished. We were all in shock.

Until 9/11, when I bicycled from my office to stare at the remains of the two towers of the World Trade Center, nothing afterwards shook my sense of the world as deeply...

When I read now about wars abroad these are the images I reference to try and understand what the people involved might be experiencing.

Pardon the long answer. Seeing this picture brought it all back...

-=-=-

I hope this clarifies much of the discussion below. I also have an article about my Grandfather's horses. drawing the family coal company's coal wagon, won honors at a horse show at the Hanna Estate circa 1929, a Berkshire Eagle article June 5, 1956 followed by a letter to the editor on June 13, 1956 by my father describing the driver of the wagon and the fact that the barn in the background had burned 2 years earlier (to 1956).

PLEASE click on the links below. A clipping from the Berkshire Eagle January 25, 1955 tells the story about this fire. There is an Aerial photograph of the Estate House, Bonny Brier, and the sizeable barn nearby that burned.

Pierce Coal Company horses and wagon at the Hanna Estate circa 1929

-=-=- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Milo066 (talk • contribs) 13:20, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Photo of the Hanna Estate showing the barn.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Hanna-Estate.jpg/1024px-Hanna-Estate.jpg Milo066 (talk) 14:21, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Best link to photo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hanna-Estate.jpg#file Milo066 (talk) 14:25, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Berkshire Eagle Clipping January 25, 1955 fire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Berkshire_Evening_Eagle_Tue_Jan_25_1955.jpg

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An editor wrote: "A fire in the 1950s or early 1960s destroyed part of the school's campus buildings, which later included a number of replacement buildings made primarily of cinderblock and wood-frame construction." This is unsourced, unencylopedic, and untrue. Even the editor is uncertain of their facts. Now on this talk page alleged alumnus David Carridine has allegedly been implicated in the fire that allegedly burned down the barn.

The truth is the barn on campus never burned down, it was deconstructed after briefly being used as classroom and dormitory space. The story of the barn burning and subsequent horse deaths that also spawned the ghost horse stories, is a conflation of the real burning of another barn owned by Hanna down the road named "Shaddowbrook" located where the Kripalu Center now is. The barn burning story was picked up by later Stockbridge School students who believed it to be the barn formerly located on the campus. Teens do love their stories especially the scary ones. The students of The DeSisto school also passed this erroneous story on. let's stop it here! It doesn't belong in wikipedia. I could get citations for this, but this article is supposed to be about the Stockbridge School not trivia, tall tales, and rural legends about the history of the Hanna estate. Wlmg (talk) 23:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Wlmg has been somehow misinformed.

Also, is unlikely that Maeder at any time kept horses at his school.

Calamitybrook (talk) 20:55, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

If there's anything to the fire story then how come there is no mention of it in the Stockbridge School website that mentions them living and having classes in the barn and other far more trivial matters? There's also a mention of Hans running an operation before the school at an estate that had had fire, but the barn there didn't burn. So there's even more fuel for story conflation. I wish I could find the cite for the barn deconstruction, but it's rotted away. The Shaddowbrook stuff is on microfilm. That leaves a fire that supposedly occurred in the 50's or 60's and it's crickets on that stuff. As for Hans ever keeping horses, that's completely irrelevant though keeping horses in a barn used for student dorms could've gotten very stinky. Wlmg (talk) 21:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

You are correct that there don't seem to be acceptable sources... unless one can visit appropriate libraries.

The barn, that contained the classrooms and boys dorm, did burn down in the early 50`s. It happened in the early afternoon when we were at lunch. The barn contained no animals only machinery ie truck and tractor. The fire started in the storage area on the second floor. The use of available fire extingishers could not localizes the blaze which spread very quickly. Cause unknown!```´----DC Class`57....(16oct2011)

I'll maybe give some attention to this but am doubtful.

'Tis nonetheless a fact that the barn burnned through an unfortunate accident and your "facts" are mistaken.

```` ----CB....

We shall see then if your original research can beat up my original research. Btw my researcher says Shaddowbrook was another fire in 1956 and not a barn. But the 19th century barn fire on the Hanna estate that smoked all those horses is on record. If you wish I can provide the citations. Wlmg (talk) 02:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you've got information about a 19th Century incident of some sort that is unrelated to the structure previously mentioned in the Wikipedia article.

See The Berkshire Eagle (Pittsfield, Massachusetts) April 3, 2009 Friday. "The many lives of the Hanna estate"

"Dan R. Hanna, son of Ohio Sen. Mark Hanna, took the property off Mrs. Hill's hands (for $500,000) in 1916......Hanna had an enormous horse barn built -- reputedly the largest in New England.... "

The bit of a book currently cited on Wikipedia page indicates that this barn had been integral part of the Stockbridge School infrastructure during 1950s. No mention of horses.

Rational speculation suggests that a tiny boarding school wouldn't have a likely reason, nor probably the funds, to demolish "reputedly the largest" barn in New England.

However, reliable sources on the fire may be available only through on-site research at Berkshire libraries. The Berkshire Eagle archive on LexisNexis only goes back to 1990s. Haven't checked a few other available databases, but am doubtful & may be disinclined.

Calamitybrook (talk) 17:44, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the barn was damaged by fire and then abandoned and deconstructed. That would satisfy all barn theorists. It was made out of very valuable hardwoods, and deconstruction and salvage is a widespread practice in New England. Hans may have traded the wood value in lieu of demolition and deconstruction costs. The barn was pretty old in the late 40's and I have serious doubts as to its legal use for human habitation as Hans was using it for. But hey it was the 40's and who really cared about some odd German refugee and his proto-beatnik students? Once the first cinderblock dorms were up, the dilapidated barn could go and room for the gym could be made available. There was not the same sense of historic preservation that we have today, that didn't really come about until the 60's. Wlmg (talk) 18:07, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

The 19th Century incident & relevant citation to which you refer was what??? Thread is drifting according to shifting theories???

Calamitybrook (talk) 00:32, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm looking at a jpg someone sent me but: The North Adams Evening Transcript Friday April 18 1???(blurred) "FIRE BURNS BARN AT HANNA ESTATE" "Believe Blaze May Have Been Incendiary of Origin" "Four horses, twelve head of cattle and two automobiles and much hay and many farm implements were destroyed last night when fire of undetermined origin destroyed the large barn owned by Mrs Mollie(?) Hanna on the Dan R. Hanna estate in Interlaken. The fire departments of Interlaken, Stockbridge, and Lee responded. The villa which is located a considerable distance from the barn was not endangered. Damage is estimated at about $30,000. It is believed the fire may be of incendiary origin."

Wlmg (talk) 02:10, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Sources I've read indicate that Dan Hanna assembled his land by purchasing a number of separate parcels. No telling how many barns there might have been at one time. ;-)

Regardless, as long as there are no sources for this fire other than school legend, it doesn't belong in the article. Additionally, I can't see much point in continuing to talk about it here. Even if a barn on the campus did burn down circa 50 years ago, how is that an important aspect of the school's history? --Orlady (talk) 03:13, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

The alleged barn burning could be relevant. The barn was being used for classroom and dormitory space. If cites can be found then that could be used to segue to the cinder block dorm and school building era. It is also important to at a minimum of at least five people on the planet at my last count. ;-} I saw the cite (since lost) on deconstruction, but for a long time believed the fire story as did all the other DeSisto school alums. I'm not the only alum who independently discovered the deconstruction story. Variations of the legend include horse and human casualties in the fire as well, and of course their ghosts.

Wlmg (talk) 03:59, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I get it now -- if the barn was an important part of the campus, its burning might have been a significant event in the school's story. I looked on Facebook to see if there's a Stockbridge School page whose members might help sort out these sorts of details (based on their recollections, verified by documents they possess). I found a page, but was surprised to see that it has very few members: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stockbridge-School/107908989237872 --Orlady (talk) 16:03, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it burned during the 19th Century as suggested: in which case would indeed be irrelevant. Sources appear lacking, so yes, let's drop for the moment what became of this remarkable structure.

Calamitybrook (talk) 15:39, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

It appears to me that there were a lot of barns at one time. There probably were multiple barn fires in the history of the Hanna estate. --Orlady (talk) 16:03, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Serious problem arises from the reliability of anything you might get from a Stockbridge School alum, unless of course they have a cite. An alum posted on this wiki talk page that David Carradine was implicated in the burning of the barn, but even the poster says this is legend. But it does tell us the poster was likely an alum some time after Carradine and the barn burning story was in play.

Carradine's bio has him in a series of boarding schools, reform schools and foster homes, so he was likely at Stockbridge in the early 50's closer to 1951-'53. School stories usually dissolve into meaninglessness in three or four years as classes cycle through oonflating and distorting earlier stories. The latest conflation was with the 1956 Shaddowbrook fire that a DeSisto School alum believed to be the name of the barn from the microfilm jpg of the Hanna barn fire I transcribed here. Btw the campus barn itself has grown in the afterlife I've seen it mentioned as the largest barn on the east coast. And maybe the Hanna estate needs its own article to sort out its remarkable history of both the physical plant and its residents.

Wlmg (talk) 17:38, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, student recollections are nearly useless unless they are supported by reliable sources. However, students might have materials (such as old yearbooks or other student publications) that might be citeable, or at least would help in tracking down the story in more reliable sources (such as archives of the Berkshire Eagle). --Orlady (talk) 17:46, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

We can completely discount the post above suggesting that citations are available re. the Hanna Estate Barn burned during the 19th Century.

Hanna acquired the property in 1916 and thereafter built "reputedly the largest barn in New England" according to Berkshire Eagle's relatively recent account.

A substantial "barn" is described in listed source as significant part of the campus. The now demonstrably inaccurate poster then suggests same barn was deliberately demolished by Stockbridge School, at some point after the mid 20th Century, for reasons that would be, to say the least, unclear. These shifting suggestions are to me, significantly distracting.

So although barn is described by listed source as at one time a significant part of the campus, and by a separate source as significant and regionally notable undertaking of Hanna, perhaps the topic should just be abandoned without usable sources.

Calamitybrook (talk) 01:01, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

You appear to be suggesting that the large barn built by Hanna is probably the same "barn" that Stockbridge School used for school purposes. Sorry, but that looks like synthesis, which Wikipedia considers to be a form of original research. --Orlady (talk) 01:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I usually eschew original research, but this is a talk page. I've seen the remains of the foundation and that thing was the size of football field.Wlmg (talk) 01:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

That still will not solve the mystery of the ultimate fate of the campus barn. As for being a "demonstrably inaccurate poster" how is this so? I couldn't read the date of a blurry jpg of an old newspaper. What an incredibly awful editor am I. I don't know the chronology of the Hanna estate down pat. What an incredibly awful editor am I. All I'm doing is presenting as much information as I have. It's called problem solving. What's is insignificant to you may lead other people to additional information. As for the barn being deconstructed, I repeat it was from a website created by a Stockbridge School alum that has long ago gone down the memory hole. When I speculate I clearly state I'm speculating. When I'm offering hard cites that is clear as well. What an incredibly awful editor am I. If the barn burned then proof is needed.Wlmg (talk) 01:38, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Another barn! .....Although our major buildings are finished quite a number of our boys and girls have been busy roofing and partly completing the new barn in the pasture. This summer during work camp we hope to put the finishing touches on this barn so that next winter we shall again be able to have a complete string of riding horses. Also we hope to have other animals again. Since the fire we have missed this particular aspect of our school life. .................

Excerpts from The Stockbridge School Newsletter from Ruth and Hans Maeder The Christian Science Monitor May 11, 1957

Wlmg (talk) 15:43, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Headmaster after Maeder?

This 1970 Saturday Review article about 5 progressive schools in New England identifies William Gantner as the Stockbridge School headmaster who had recently taken over from Hans Maeder (whose name is spelled "Maider" in that article). This does not agree with this Wikipedia article, which says that Maeder retired in 1971, and names two other men as having succeeded him as head of the school.

My guess is that William Gantner didn't last very long (the Saturday Review article indicates that he was finding it a challenge to deal with the culture at Stockbridge) and that Maeder took the reins again... Perhaps someone associated with the school can sort this out. --Orlady (talk) 17:42, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

That's a remarkable guess.

Calamitybrook (talk) 20:14, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I attended Stockbridge from 1/69 until 6/70. Bill Gantner was acting headmaster for the '69-'70 school year while Hans was on sabbatical. Hans returned for the '70-'71 school year. Rathje40