Talk:Stiffkey

Stiffkey v. Stewkey

On April 3rd 2010 user 'Yarboro' made a change to the declared pronunciation of Stiffkey to suggest that "outsiders" were responsible for the pronunciation "Stewkey".

A Google search of "stiffkey stewkey" found 870 results, most of which seems to be valid, independent pages, many of them from local sources, indicating that the preferred local pronunciation is "Stewkey". This aligns with my own experience in talking with people born in the county, which has a number of similar oddly pronounced place names. They seem to suggest that far from becoming obsolete, the pronunciation by people with strong Norfolk accents is slipping closer to "Stookey".

This may seem trivial, but I am concerned by two things:

1. "outsiders" is a strong, xenophobic term and should not be used without equally strong evidence.

2. Norfolk abounds with contemporary local language variations and documenting these is very much in line with Wiki's underlying purpose to inform.

If there is evidence that either a non-resident group are forcing the variation in pronunciation or the pronunciation is changing with time, can someone please quote some sort of verifiable source, or even their own reason for believing it to be so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.136.199 (talk) 18:55, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think "outsider" is xenophobic, it is the only way to describe non-locals. Norfolk is notorious for its unphonetic names, although many of these are now dying out. Happisburgh for one.--MacRusgail (talk) 22:18, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Isn't "non-locals" a good way to describe non-locals without implying ignorance of local custom and values? But what does this person mean by the statement? Where is the evidence required for a statement on Wiki? I suspect from my conversations with many old men of Norfolk that 'Stewkey' is the longest standing and commonest pronunciation amongst those who've lived all their lives in the county. The entry should therefore be amended to "Stiffkey, often pronounced 'Stewkey'..." with all aspects lacking evidence removed; there being no documentary evidence for dilution or the operation of "outsiders". This is clearly stated Wiki policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.142.71 (talk) 10:24, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Again, who is local and non-local? Someone who has lived there a long time? Someone who was born there and moved away, or someone who was born elsewhere, but has a lot of family locally etc. I don't think outsider is particularly xenophobic.

Certainly within Norfolk, a lot of the local pronunciations are dying off. It's happening in Scotland too - few people say Enster for Anstruther, Kinneuchar for Kilconquhar, Mallig for Mallaig ("Mall-AYG") although Mulguy is common for Milngavie, because it's a larger settlement.--MacRusgail (talk) 10:37, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

As a local, I can confirm that Yarboro was completely correct. There is no doubt that for at least the last century Stiffkey village has been known as Stiffkey by locals. It's notable that Tom Cullen, who interviewed many of the oldest residents in the early 1970s was at pains to point out that "Stewkey, incidentally, refers only to cockles, not the village, whose name 'Stiffkey' is pronounced exactly as it is spelt, according to the people who live there" ("The Prostitutes' Padre", London, 1975, p.38). "Stewkey" appears in a dialect glossary of 1883, but Annie Berlyn, whose highly-coloured essay on the village was plagiarised by most travel writers up until the '30s, seems to be the primary origin of the misapprehension. She does indeed say that the place is known as Stewkey - but is told so in Wells Next the Sea, her informant - the "boots" at the Globe Inn - asserting that "Stiffkey - Stewkey is what it's called round these parts - They're none of us, they're queer folk" ("Sunrise Land", London, 1894, p.70). Given that she then describes the village as "A replica of all the evils... weird, gloomy and lifeless... It is not Peace but Death that reigns" and made a point of not talking to the inhabitants (who repel her with their "puny frames, stunted forms, dull wits and worse") she can hardly be thought reliable.

Yet the "Boots" comment is significant. Four years later, the Norfolk folklorist and dialect scholar Walton N. Dew records "Stewkey Blue" not as the name for local cockles (as is now usually said), but as an insulting nickname used by neighboring communities alongside "Wells Bitefingers", "Gorleston Jews", "Salthouse Bitches", "Baconsthorpe Strippers" and similar terms of abuse ("A Dyshe of Norfolke Dumplings", London 1898, p58-59). It seems clear that Stiffkey was often known as "Stewkey" in nearby villages, but there is no indication that the inhabitants called it anything but Stiffkey.

There is in fact considerable evidence from the Bacon Correspondence (1580-1620, London, 1915) that even then Stiffkey was locally pronounced roughly as it is today. I have found only a single use of "Stewkey" in this abundant source, and that in an aristocrat's appendage to a legal document at Kings Lynn. The local correspondents, many obviously humble, often barely literate and clearly using phonetic spelling, invariably write "Stiffkeye", "Stifkey","Styfkey" or "Stufkey". For a number of reasons I suspect that the last is probably nearest the actual sound at that time. Saxton's map (1574), which closely adheres to local pronunciation, uses "Stifcay" which suggests much the same. Given a well-documented local historical tendency to smooth "inelegant" placenames into two syllables ("Huns'tun", "Hays'brah", "Win'dam" etc) - "Stewkey" is fairly obviously just "St'key", but would have been an informal term. It's important to remember that in all the places mentioned above, the ordinary people who lived there traditionally used the full name - the short versions are associated with outsiders and the gentry. "Huns'tun" for Hunstanton was a badge of superior social rank well into the 20th century - as witness John Betjamin's self-conscious use in his wonderful 1961 film "Kings Lynn to Hunstanton".

To be honest, a great deal of the problem with Norfolk pronunciation comes from the late 19th/early 20th century, when the county was re-invented as a patch of pre-industrial perfection in which "the dear old ways" continued. A vast and questionable dialect literature sprang up, written by gentleman-folklorists pretending to be peasants, and has been taken as gospel since. A peculiarly relevant case is to be found at Cley Next The Sea, 5 miles from Stiffkey and now often pronounced "Cly". As the Parish Council website mordantly observes, the pronunciation was "Clay" until "after the war when many, largely middle class, newcomers settled in the village". "Cly" is now claimed to be the "real Norfolk" pronunciation, when in reality it differentiates the established incomer from the "trippers" and her cleaning lady. Imagine the Queen, who retains something akin to a mid-century upper-middle class accent (for which she was once mocked in "aristocratic" circles), saying "Cley" and all will be explained :) For what it's worth, it seems to me likely that "Stewkey" reflects the pronunciation of the Kings Lynn and Wisbech merchants who monopolised the cockle trade, thus became attached to cockles and - jocularly - to the village. But that is mere hypothesis and all this just opinion and original research :) Jellyandjocko (talk)

Bridge removed National Trust

Why has the bridge been removed 146.198.220.180 (talk) 17:23, 12 August 2022 (UTC)