Talk:Stephen Jolly

Jolly's removal from Victorian Socialists expansion, and Election Party Altercation inclusion

Removal from Victorian Socialists expansion

Referencing how these have been reported in the media. Allegations as per the article title, and the opening paragraphs.

23 September 2019 | Stephen Jolly splits from Victorian Socialists amid serious allegations | By Noel Towell and Benjamin Millar | Prominent Melbourne left wing politician Stephen Jolly has split with his party, the Victorian Socialists, amid serious allegations involving the City of Yarra councillor. [...] Details of the accusation against Cr Jolly, who has not been arrested or charged and denies any wrongdoing, cannot be reported for legal reasons.

The current instance in the article does not reflect how this was reported in this reference This full statement is still available on Victorian Socialists Facebook Page, which as I understand is not a reasonable source, despite it being where the age has lifted it from. [victorian socialists statement | https://www.facebook.com/vicsocialists/posts/3316370541769573/]. I do note that the announcement of the Mayoral election links directly to the yarra city facebook page , and would like clarification.

my proposed update - as is inline with the reporting from 2019

In September 2019 Jolly resigned from the Victorian Socialists after the party executive voted to suspend his membership in response to serious allegations involving him. Jolly was not arrested or charged, and denied any wrongdoing.

Election Party Altercation inclusion

The "after party" is included in the reference, if you cannot see the whole page you need to access the archived version. archive.today has been down a lot for me recently you may not be able to access it immediately - perhaps I could have phrased this "denial" differently, I have updated it inline with the reporting. I apologise.

5.13pm on Nov 4, 2024 | Altercation at election campaign party in Fitzroy | By Rachael Dexter | Masked intruders gatecrashed the post-election party of long-time Yarra councillor Stephen Jolly at the weekend, with video showing an altercation between the group and party attendees. [...] Jolly told The Age up to 100 of his supporters attended the venue and were frightened by the intruders. He said there was no violence between the groups.

my updated proposed inclusion

On November 4 2024, The Age reported on an altercation at a "Yarra For All" campaign after party which took place on 1 November. Jolly said there was no violence between the two groups.

Both these are sourced from The Age, other articles by the same journalist are included in the article.

finally

I believe it may also be worth reworking the "The party denied any cover-up" from , the preceding line details Jolly's allegations against the party (referencing, the statement from the party states Jolly left only after allegations against him were being investigated. I do not want to put more time into this without clarification.

I apologise for any formatting quirks, if you have anything you'd like me to review re: formatting in a talk page, I'd be happy to learn.

This is a very sensitive issue, please take time and care with your response.

(Charmanderpants (talk) 04:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC))

Hi @Charmanderpants, I will have a full read of what you've written and respond later on tonight. TarnishedPath^talk 04:29, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok, before I address anything else, just because something is covered in a reference it doesn't mean we have to cover it in an WP article about a person. WP:ONUS covers this when it states "While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and other policies may indicate that the material is inappropriate".

In relation to your suggested update: "In September 2019 Jolly resigned from the Victorian Socialists after the party executive voted to suspend his membership in response to serious allegations involving him. Jolly was not arrested or charged, and denied any wrongdoing."

There are a number of policies we should consider: WP:BLPCRIME, WP:BLPPUBLIC, WP:BLPSPS and WP:WEIGHT off the top of my head. BLPCRIME states "A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations, arrests and charges do not amount to a conviction", while BLPPUBLIC states "In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. Ok so put simply when it comes to the unspecified allegations covered by the first Age article, there's only one reliable source and the allegations aren't specific in any manner at all. The incident is clearly not noteworthy and its inclusion would tar Stephen as having potentially committed some serious crime. As you stated correctly we can't use the Victorian Socialists FB source as this is a self=published source and BLPSPS states usage of such sources should never happen unless written by the subject of the article. On your question of using Yarra City Council's FB to support Stephen's instalment as mayor, that is covered by WP:ABOUTSELF where we can use self-published material where it is making simple uncontroversial statements of fact (x was the leader from y to z, etc) and which are about itself.

Moving on to the campaign after party, what you propose is a lot better but I'm unsure if it really adds anything or is necessary.

On the part regarding Jolly leaving the Socialist Party, I'm open to suggestions but bearing in mind that we can't use the Socialist Party sources to state anything in the article beyond what socialist party say about themselves (that they denied the allegations). The Age article states that they contact the Socialist Party for a response but nothing else so it's hard to see what could be included, but again I'm open to consider suggestions.

I'll post a topic at WP:BLP/N to get try and get wider input. TarnishedPath^talk 11:32, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we should mention that the split from the Victorian Socialists was due to "allegations of an unspecified nature", as we currently say in the section "Victorian Socialists (2018-2019)" (allegation by whom, about whom and about what?). It has been five years since the split and presumably nothing has come of the allegations. We should apply caution when dealing with a BLP as stated in the policies mentioned by TarnishedPath. We should state he split with VICSOC in September 2019 and mention that he was suspended by the party and resigned as a result, as stated in The Age article. This is roughly the version that is given in the "Activism" section. As mentioned above the phrase "The party denied any cover-up" is not appropriate because "denied" is a word to watch.

Regarding the 2024 confrontation, I am not opposed to its inclusion, but am not certain that it is sufficiently noteworthy. It should not be linked to Jolly's 2019 departure from VICSOC - that may not have been the intention. Burrobert (talk) 12:11, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

IF we're going to mention the allegations, this source [1] would like be useful although I'm not sure as it's behind a paywall. Nil Einne (talk) 13:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Herald Sun is tabloid journalism. Per WP:RSP#Tabloids they should be used with care. It has also be discussed or referred to a number of times at WP:RS/N with a number of editors stating that it is not reliable. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 426#Reliability of the Herald Sun where I list a number of previous discussions about the source. I certainly don't think it's appropriate to use BLPs. TarnishedPath^talk 13:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

References