Talk:Stephan Rosti

Biography?

The following was moved from User talk:98.194.124.102 (see diff) to provide context for further discussion here. Suggest starting a new section on this page for moving forward. 98.194.124.102: Just a note... it's not proper etiquette to move the comments of others onto another page without giving a clear indication as to what happened. Looking only at the signatures and timestamps, it looks as if I was in discussion at this page, when I was in fact in discussion on your talk page. Sancho 21:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Sancho: Stephan Rosti is the article that I had spent hours building (from a version that was only the couple of sentences that remain now, and was erased by User: Supreme Deliciousness, sources included. SD questioned the validity of my sources and I question theirs. SD's source that Stephan Rosti was Hungarian is the same that declares Omar Sharif Greek-born. In fact, it is the same sentence in the same source. Ovbiously, both allegations of that sentence are false. Omar Sharif was Egyptian born and Stephan was Egyptian of an Italian Egyptian mother and an Austrian father. Previously, SD had made efforts to change Stephan Rosti's nationality from Egyptian to Italian. Now, SD calls Stephan Hungarian!

I was hoping to get to the other Egyptian articles that SD continues to change after we're done with Omar Sharif. What exactly is SD's agenda against Egypt? You tell me! (98.194.124.102 (talk) 08:13, 20 June 2009 (UTC))

• By the way, the source happens to be an encyclopedia. The article in that encyclopedia is written by an Associate professor of Arabic and Linguistics at Western Michigan University [1], and edited by two respected editors. Also, in communication with the author of that encyclopedia article, he indicated to me that by "Greek-born" he meant having Greek origins, and acknowledged that he was born in Alexandria. Sancho 22:57, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Clearly "Greek-born" is not the same as "having Greek-origins". What are the author's sources for asserting that Omar Sharif had Greek origins or that Stephan Rosti was Hungarian? I do not see this information properly referenced in that collection of papers loosely named "encyclopedia". Now, he acknowledges that Omar Sharif was born in Alexandria, how is he going to correct his "encyclopedia" to reflect this acknowldgement? What about Stephan Rosti's roots on which he's also wrong? Does that source retain any credibility? I realize that Austria and Hungary were one country at the time of Stephan Rosti's birth, but that is not what that author states. Also, Stephan's father was an official diplomat from that country "Austria, as it was more commonly known" in Egypt, where he met Stephan's mother and fathered the child. Due to his family's objections, he left mother and child behind in Egypt and returned to "Austria". Stephan continued to live in Egypt, travelled to Europe in search for recognition by his father, then returned to Egypt and produced his entire repertoire of work in Egypt, and he died in Egypt. To simply call him "Hungarian" is not what I would call the work of "respected editors". (98.194.124.102 (talk) 23:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC))

• I don't know. Perhaps that's not the work of respected editors, but maybe they made mistakes, maybe they didn't. If there are sufficient alternate sources that establish that this source is incorrect, we can make that agreement, but it can't happen through a series of reversions without discussion. Please use the article's talk page to sort out this content dispute. Given the discussion of encyclopedias (tertiary sources) at Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources, if there are reliable secondary sources that contradict the information in that encyclopedia, we should use those reliable secondary sources instead. But, don't just revert.Sancho 23:33, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

We know that Omar Sharif was neither Greek born, nor had Greek origins. So, I dismiss that "encyclopedia". There are plenty of Egyptian sources on Stephan Rosti's life written in Arabic. The Arabic Wikipedia cites the information I told above. What do we do in this case?

(98.194.124.102 (talk) 23:52, 19 June 2009 (UTC))

Sancho: please see the following on Stephan Rosti: http://www.answers.com/topic/stephan-rosti. (98.194.124.102 (talk) 00:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC))

Below is the biography of Stephan Rosti that I could gather, no references since they were in Arabic. Since you have established communication with this author, I would appreciate if you obtained from him the sources of his article in reference to Stephan Rosti. Thanks.

"Stephan's mother was an Italian Egyptian dancer. She was performing in Egypt when she met Stephan's father, the Austrian ambassador to Cairo. The ambassador's family refused to acknowledge the relationship, and the father left mother and child behind in Egypt and returned to Austria. Stephan assumed the family name of his mother, who placed him in "Raas El-Teen" primary school in Alexandria.

"As a young man, Stephan travelled to Austria seeking recognition by his father, but to no avail. As he danced and waited tables at restaurants in Austria, Germany, and France, Stephan met and befriended two visiting Egyptian film-makers, Mohamed Kurayyem and Sirag Mounir, who encouraged him to return to Egypt to work in cinema, given his fluency in Egyptian Arabic and after he expressed his desire to do so. Stephan returned to Egypt and enrolled as a student in the "Acting Institute" of Cairo, and accepted his first role in "Layla" from producer Aziza Amir in 1927.

"Stephan appeared in 24 Egyptian films between 1927 and 1964. He also directed seven Egyptian films between 1931 and 1946. He was renowned for portraying evil characters with a satirical inclination, and he became an icon of the Egyptian film industry."

(98.194.124.102 (talk) 07:56, 20 June 2009 (UTC))

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reverting without sources

Let's not revert without discussion. Definitely do not remove information that is supported by a reference without discussion and providing an alternate reference. As I've said before, the encyclopedia is considered a reliable source, albeit a tertiary one (see Wikipedia:PSTS). Perhaps, it's not very reliable considering the contradictions that it contains about the birthplace of Omar Sharif, but then simply provide another source rather than removing it without explanation. Arabic references are fine. Sancho 21:14, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Sancho: here's a more detailed biography of Stephan Rosti: http://www.startimes2.com/f.aspx?t=16216085 (by the way, you will find Omar Sharif and Stephan Rosti in an Egyptian film in the first photo on that page). Thank you for accepting Arabic sources. If you read Arabic, you will find strong agreement with the bio that I had constructed. --98.194.124.102 (talk) 00:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

بقلم : هند مختار... يا ترى النجوم اللي أمتعونا نعرف عنهم إيه أكتر من اللي بنشوفه على الشاشة ؟ هل نعرف ألامهم معناتهم ..عذاباتهم .. أحلامهم ..

والسؤال اللي دايما بيؤرقني ومش لاقيه له إجابة ليه دايما نجوم الكوميديا نهايتهم مملوءة بالدموع بعدد الابتسامات اللي رسموها على وجوهنا؟؟؟

إستيفانو دي روستي وكلمة (دي ) عند الأجانب ما بتكونش موجودة إلا للدلالة على علو المكانة المولود في سنة 1891 لأب نمساوي وهو سفير النمسا بالقاهرة وأم إيطالية .. كانت الأم عاشقة لمصر حتى لما زوجها ترك العمل السياسي وقرر الذهاب للنمسا للاستقرار في بلده رفضت وقررت الحياة في مصر وتطلقت منه ..وذهبت بابنها إستيفان إسكندرية واستخبت هناك علشان تبعده عن أبوه ليخطفه .. كانت المنطقة التي اختبئوا بها هي منطقة راس التين واللي دخل إستيفان مدارسها حتى المرحلة الثانوية وهناك بدأت تظهر عليه موهبة التمثيل ... ولكن وآه من لكن تلك حذر أحد المدرسين إستيفان من الاستمرار في التمثيل في الفرق الصغيرة بالإسكندرية وكان رد استيفان (ماقدرش أمنع نفسي من التمثيل) ..فكان أن تم فصله من المدرسة ... حد يصدق إن استيفان البارون النمساوي ابن السفير كان بوسطجي ؟! بعد فصل استيفان من المدرسة قدم ورقه إلى مصلحة البريد والتي عينته بوسطجي وبعد 8 أيام جالهم جواب من نفس المدرس إن استيفان (والعياذ بالله) ممثلا فتم فصله من مصلحة البريد ... (في كل العصور يوجد متخلفون فبلاش نظلم عصرنا) ... نتيجة اللي حصل وإن فلوس التمثيل لا تكفيه هو ووالدته قررا الاثنان الذهاب إلى إيطاليا للعمل ودراسة التمثيل وقد كان له ما أراد ففي إيطاليا عمل مترجما ودرس التمثيل ، وشاهد المسرح الإيطالي ونجومه الكبار ..

عمل هناك مساعدا للإخراج في الأفلام ومستشارا للعادات والتقاليد الشرقية في الأفلام التي تنتج عن الشرق والمغرب العربي ..ثم سافر إلى فرنسا وهناك عمل في الأفلام السينمائية ثم سافر إلى فيينا حيث شارك في إحدى المسرحيات ... قابل روستي محمد كريم واللي كان بيدرس الإخراج في ألمانيا وكان معاه الفنان سراج منير اللي هجر الطب وكان يدرس في نفس المعهد فكان قرار إستيفان أنه يدرس في نفس المعهد التمثيل دراسة أكاديمية ... رجع إستيفان لمصر وقابل عزيز عيد واللي كان إستيفان مبهوراً به في طفولته، و أعجب عزيز عيد بإستيفان وكان منه أن أسند له دور في مسرحية "خللي بالك من إيميلي" وشيئا فشيئا صار عند عزيز ذو أهمية كبيرة "أو فرخة بكشك" لكنه ترك عزيز عيد وانضم للريحاني وبعدها لفرقة يوسف وهبي .. وقد قدم دور بابا حاج في أوبريت العشرة الطيبة للريحاني وعرب الكثير والكثير من المسرحيات الأجنبية ... يوجد موقف لإستيفان روستي مع الريحاني يحكي كيف أن هذا الفنان فذ موهوب للغاية ..في أحد الأيام وكان يمثل مسرحية مع يوسف وهبي وكان أول مشهد هو مشهده عند فتح الستارة وقد تأخر عن ميعاده المعتاد وكان يوسف وهبي يهدد فميعاد فتح الستارة مقدس ولا يستطيع أن يؤخره وكان دور إستيفان هو دور بارمان فما كان من يوسف وهبي إلا أن يقوم بتأديته بدلا منه إنقاذا للموقف وعند فتح الستار وقبل أن يبدأ يوسف وهبي في التمثيل دخل استيفان إلى المسرح فما كان من يوسف وهبي إلا أن فقد أعصابه على المسرح ووبخه على التأخير فقام استيفان روستي (بلم الدور) وتقمص شخصية البارمان وأعتذر له لأنه تأخر عن الوردية وحكى له الحقيقة وهي أن عمل حادثة بسيارته وأنه تركها واستقل الترام والذي تأخر أيضا ولكن الحمد لله أنه وصل في معاده فوصلت الرسالة ليوسف وهبي وأعتقد الجمهور أن هذا جزء من المسرحية وتمت الليلة بسلام..

كان يوجد امرأة اسمها عزيزة أمير منتجة وممثلة شغوفة جدا بالسينما وكانت لها شركة إنتاج اسمها إيزيس فيلم وقررت وقتها أن تخرج أول فيلم مصري اسمه (يد الله) وتعرفت على مخرج تركي اسمه وداد عرفي عرف نفسه على إنه مخرج وموفد شركة ماركوس الألمانية لاختيار نجوم للأفلام التي تنوي الشركة إنتاجها. فما كان من عزيزة أمير إلا أنها أسندت إليه إخراج فيلمها الأول ولكن بعد اكتمال الفيلم اكتشفت أنه كارثة وأن ودادا عرفي نصاب (حقيقية عرفوها بعدين) ولا يفقه شيئا عن المبادئ الأولية للإخراج فما كان منها إلا أن تسند إخراج الفيلم إلى إستيفان روستي وأعادت كتابة الفيلم بمشاركة أحمد جلال وكان الفيلم هو (ليلى) أول فيلم مصري مئة في المئة وكان من إخراج استيفان روستي ... شارك أيضا في كتابة العديد من سيناريوهات الأفلام منها قاطع الطريق ولن أعترف وابن ذوات سنة 1964 انطلقت إشاعة تقول أنه قد توفي وقامت نقابة الممثلين بعمل حفل تأبين له إلا أنهم فوجئوا بدخولهم عليه فانطلقت الزغاريد من ماري منيب ونجوى سالم وسعاد حسين ابتهاجاً بوجوده على قيد الحياة والطريف أنه توفي في مايو من نفس العام .... تزوج إستيفان روستي من فتاة يتيمة فقيرة اسمها "ماريا" رزق منها بطفلين إلا أنهم توفوا وهم أطفال في حياته مما ترك أكبر أثر في حياته ،وحينما توفي لم يجدوا في منزله إلا مبلغاً تافهاً لا يتعدى عشر جنيهات ..وقد سرق اللصوص سيارته بعد وفاته بأسبوع وقد حزنت زوجته عليه حتى أصابها الجنون .. نشنت يا فالح .. أنا موهندس .. دقيقة واحدة أتحزم وأجي أرقص مع حضرتك .. كلها جمل صنعت من فنه كوميديا الشر ...

The web site http://www.startimes2.com looks like it may accept user-submitted content. I think there needs to be some evidence that this site qualifies as a WP:Reliable source. EdJohnston (talk) 00:28, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

The same text is found here: http://www.copts-united.com/08_copts-united_08/cinema.php/2009/02/06/16404.html --98.194.124.102 (talk) 00:39, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

That one seems to be an activist web site that promotes the interests of the Copts. Isn't there anything like a newspaper site that would have this information? Or the name of a published book? EdJohnston (talk) 02:03, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I am searching; and you can help search too. However, Stephan Rosti was not a Copt and the site says that it is for all Egyptians. The biography seems to have first appreared in Al-Ahram newspaper, the most widely distributed in the Middle East, http://arabi.ahram.org.eg/arabi/Ahram/2006/5/13/SUMR25.HTM, and the biographist name is Ahmed Amin, which is a Muslim name. This website shows Stephan's birthplace as Egypt and his nationality as Egyptian: http://www.shoofeetv.com/celebrity/730/eistefan-rossty --98.194.124.102 (talk) 02:18, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Shoofee.tv could be a personal web site. Are there no movie encyclopedias that would cover Rosti? You need to satisfy the requirements of WP:RS. If you can't find any bona fide publications that discuss his country of birth, we are better off keeping what's in the article now, sourced to an African Encyclopedia, which says he was Hungarian. You can ask at WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard if you want to get other opinions on whether shoofeetv.com qualifies. EdJohnston (talk) 21:06, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

The Al-Ahram newspaper source is sufficiently reliable; Al-Ahram is the NYT of the Middle East. Here's another Arabic source (appears to be a movie encyclopedia), http://cinema.sakhr.com/Actors/ABiog.aspx?PID=543, that identifies Stephan as an Egyptian actor and director: .ممثل ومخرج مصري The African Encyclopedia article was proven to be inaccurate, also as per the admission of its author, on the place of birth of Omar Sharif, in the same sentence that calls Stephan Rosti Hungarian. I can count several other errors in the same paragraph, including calling Omar's school Victory College. It was Victoria College (after Queen Victoria). Sancho has communicated with the author who acknowledged the error on Omar Sharif (see Sancho's post from 22:57, 19 June 2009 above). He might as well acknowledge the error on Stephan Rosti. That author did not provide any references to any of his allegations. Did he just make up the whole thing? There are doubts about the authenticity of that article in the African Encyclopedia and, as it stands now, the Stephan Rosti article is based solely upon it. Stephan Rosti was Egyptian of Italian and Austrian parents, as I wrote in the section above, and as supported by all the sources I presented. --98.194.124.102 (talk) 23:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you tell us the date and the author of the Al-Ahram piece? That is the only one that I would personally consider a reliable source. Are you able to translate parts of it if we have any questions? You may not be aware that sites such as www.imdb.com (the Internet Movie Database) are not accepted as reliable sources for anything controversial at WP:RSN. For extra credit, does Al-Ahram give the town where he was born? EdJohnston (talk) 01:08, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The date of the article is 13/05/2006; you can see that if you click the link, and the name of the author is Ahmed Amin, as I mentioned above. The article does not explicitly state the town of birth (from what I have read so far), but it states the following: "Stephan was born to a father who was working as the Austrian Ambassador in Cairo and an Italian mother who was enamoured with Egypt to the point that when it was time for the father to terminate his political assignment (in Cairo) and return to his country, she refused to travel with him and decided to remain in Egypt with her son. To escape the father's attempts to smuggle the child out of Egypt, she went into hiding and escaped to Alexandria and they lived in the Raas Al-Teen neighborhood where Stephan enrolled in its local schools." The article does mention that Stephan lived in Egypt till he died in 1964 and was survived by his wife there. Other articles indicate that Stephan's mother was an Italian Egyptian dancer living in Cairo at the time she met the Austrian diplomat. Yes, I am able to translate any section of the article that you wish. --98.194.124.102 (talk) 02:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I would be OK with saying he was born in Egypt, based on what you found in Al-Ahram. Unfortunately, since you don't find the African Encyclopedia credible, you now don't have any source you trust for saying he was of Hungarian descent, so that would have to be changed. EdJohnston (talk) 02:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, EdJohnston. This is 98. I will make the necessary changed to reflect this. Regards, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:20, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Arab Cowboy, I see you have changed the article. I've never said anything in support of shoofeetv.com, and I fear that it's not a reliable source. Al-Ahram seems OK, though. Since Rosti was an actor in Arabic movies, it is logical that Arabic sources could be used, but I think that the work of finding good sources is far from over. Take a look at WP:RS/N to get an idea of how English-language sources are typically assessed for reliability. Something like that needs to be done with the Arabic sources, I believe. And my thoughts here do not represent an 'admin opinion' because admins have no special authority on content questions. I hope that some Arabic-speakers will have time to improve this article further. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 22:06, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

EdJohnston, I am using shoofeetv as a secondary source only. The primary source in the article is Al-Ahram. You have stated that it would be OK to say that he was born in Egypt (that was your opinion in reference). I kept the word "unconfirmed" in the article for place of birth since the source is shoofeetv (secondary). I shall try to find more sources. Is there anything else that needs to be done? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Please see WP:PSTS for how 'primary' and 'secondary' are used in Wikipedia. In my opinion those two sources are both secondary, though nothing has yet been put on record here that would help us judge the reliability of shoofeetv. I know that Google searching is supposed to work in Arabic; perhaps you have made use of that already. EdJohnston (talk) 11:40, 27 June 2009 (UTC)