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Requested move (2007)

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 06:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Steeplechase (disambiguation) → Steeplechase — My impression is that the term steeplechase has no primary meaning. From what I can tell, the two uses Steeplechase (horse racing) and Steeplechase (athletics) have nearly the same frequency with only a slight bias towards the horse racing meaning. From my reading of WP:DAB#Primary topic, the disambiguation page should therefore be at steeplechase. I've discussed this before with Philip Baird Shearer , but we came to no conclusion, so I wanted to ask for input from others. —S.K. 07:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Oppose. The horse race is the primary meaning. This will probably change if the athletics event continues to have more international following than the horse racing event, but we're not there yet, and shouldn't anticipate. Andrewa 07:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Not only is the horse race the original meaning it is the primary meaning, also while steeplechasing is a minority interest athletics sport (compared to say the 100m sprint ) it is one of two primary categories in horse racing (Flat racing and steeplechasing (over jumps)) --Philip Baird Shearer 08:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - the horse racing term came first; athletics derives from that. -- Beardo 04:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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Any additional comments:

May I suggest a relevant comparison would be on the number of professionally organised events in a 12 month period which attract significant public interest (ie. attendance and TV viewers). The Australian Racing Fact Book - (see International Racing table 95) gives a world total of 7779 horse jumping races. On the assumption that 50% of these races are steeplechases, that would be approx. 3900 races per 12 months. I am unable to find a comparable figure for Steeplechase (Athletics) but would suggest that (on the basis of public interest) it would not exceed 1 or 2 races per week. A further comparison of public interest, based on the amount wagered on the different types of steeplechase, would, I think produce a similar result. Check out Betfair and see if you can find a Steeplechase (Athletics) event to bet on. In my opinion the Steeplechase (horse racing) wins by the length of the straight. Cuddy Wifter 01:14, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, the number of events might be an indicator. But since we have no comparable figure for Steeplechase (Athletics), I'm not seeing how we can use that. But given that a search on .edu gets me 67,000 hits, I would assume that there are quite a few events at least at university level. And searching through the BBC, seeing that all people opposing the move up to now come from the UK, athletics wins 2,720 to 1,920. Betting I wouldn't really see as a valid indicator, some sports and countries just have a betting tradition, others not. I currently can't access Betfair, but I'd bet ;-) there would be few Marathon or general jogging events compared to horse races. But a lot more people have running shoes than have horses. ;-) --S.K. 19:18, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC has more pages on just one steeplechase (about 9,200 from bbc.co.uk for "Grand National") than for number of pages you mentioned for athletics. Now if there is one specific athletics steeplechase which generates that much interest I'd be interested to hear about it. I'd bet there are more people in Hong Kong who bet on the Grand National than there are people who take part in the UK in the sport of athletic steeplechasing. In 2000, 600 million watch the National on TV and in "Hong Kong's Happy Valley, where 60,000 punters [watched] the National as the last race on the card." [1] --Philip Baird Shearer 23:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Philip, you recently moved Steeplechase (horse racing) to steeplechase with the explanation that it is the "primary meaning". Having done my share of dab corrections for this article and looking at Special:Whatlinkshere/Steeplechase (athletics) in comparison with Special:Whatlinkshere/Steeplechase (horse racing) I'd say the number of uses for those two meanings is about the same. WP:DAB#Primary topic then to me seems to indicate there is no primary topic in this case. Anything I overlooked? --S.K. 17:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The primary meaning of steeplechase is horse racing. The OED says:

1. A horse-race across country or on a made course with artificial fences, water-jumps, and other obstacles. Formerly, a race having a church steeple in view as goal, in which all intervening obstacles had to be cleared.
2. transf. A foot-race across country or over a course furnished with hurdles, ditches, and other obstacles.

--Philip Baird Shearer 17:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note that I did not change the ordering when I created the Hurdling (disambiguation) even though the OED say that the original meaning for hurdle-race is the horse racing type, because I suspect that the most common meaning would be athletics. (Google supports that by about the same as it does steeplechasing the other way) --Philip Baird Shearer 17:46, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lets keep the discussion on one page.
I'm not questioning that the horse race is the original meaning, only that I think nowadays it is no longer the primary one. And if I look at Google, I get 462,000 hits for "Steeplechase horse" versus 383,000 for "Steeplechase athletics". Not that overwhelming a difference, in line with the Wikipedia usage, as far as I can see. --S.K. 18:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that this is a discussion of angels on pin heads. The original meannig and the common usage in this case is the same. Common usage is the reason that I did not bother to change hurdling which is in about the same ratio the other way around and why hurdling now has a "see hurdling (disambiguation)" at the top of the article (I was supprised one did not already exist. If the Steeplechase (athletics) had been at steeplechase then I would probably not have bothered (and would have put a "see disambiguation" at the top if one did not exist) or I might have put in a WP:RM and discussed this situation in a requested move. But as it was a disambiguation page I see no harm in the move as it does not effect the articles linked to Steeplechase (athletics). --Philip Baird Shearer 18:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, it's probably not that important but except for your statement I see no other indication that horse racing is the primary meaning of steeplechase. The reason that I'm concerned is that before it was very easy to dab links to steeplechase. Everything pointing there had to be disambiguated. Now one has to look through all pages linking there and find the ones that are wrong. --S.K. 18:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors" (WP:NC) for more than half the readers it is easier for the other half it is no more difficult. Any links which are linked to the wrong article can be fixed by an editor when they notice the error. --Philip Baird Shearer 20:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

About 50% of the users that type in steeplechase get the wrong page.
If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)". (WP:DAB#Primary topic) --S.K. 20:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that you and I disagree. Take it to WP:RM if you think that it is worth debating the issue further. Please let me know if you do. --Philip Baird Shearer 21:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Seems we agree to disagreee. :-) I'll take it up at WP:RM. Thanks, --S.K. 07:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--Philip Baird Shearer 08:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What irritates me and why I pursue this (probably beyond what it's worth), is that as argumentes against there have been up to now only statements that the horse racing meaning is the primary one. I don't see anything I understand as tangible evidence for this statement. Everyone has a bias, so I'm a strong beliver in verifiability, which in my understanding is up to now missing in the opposing statements. --S.K. 05:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested Move (2018)

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

See Talk:Steeplechase (talk page of horse racing steeplechase) for a related move request -- 05:13, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

The move was successful, for the archived discussion, see Talk:Steeplechase (horse racing) -- 12:18, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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