Talk:Steampunk/Archive 4

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Removed non-cited sections

I went ahead and removed any information that we won't be able to cite (mostly due to it being info that only followers of the genre would know of). As much as it pains me to remove some things that I know for a fact are true. if I can't prove it, then it really doesn't belong in here. FACT50 16:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Does "General Leonardo" Belong Here?

Although I am not 100% sure what everybody agrees is steampunk (as I have written elsewhere), I have provided a phrase or two about General Leonardo by Erik Svane and Dan Greenberg (without the Amazon links, natch). An excerpt can be seen by clicking on the magnifying glass under the cover. If a majority thinks it doesn't belong, by all means remove it.

(Basically, the story is as follows: In the graphic novel series General Leonardo (three albums planned; In the Service of the Vatican and Crusade To the Holy Land published so far), Erik Svane and Dan Greenberg have the upper echelons of the Vatican forcing Leonardo da Vinci to build avant-garde military inventions (the tank, the hangglider, etc) in around 1480 in order to create an invincible army to embark upon a new Crusade to invade the Holy Land and reconquer Jerusalem.) Asteriks 10:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said on the list talk page it sounds like clockpunk but is close enough to include on the list. I am unsure if it warrants inclusion here (along with Conrad Stargard as Medieval Steampunk) as it might be pushing the envelope and this entry isn't supposed to be all inclusive (that is what the list is for after all ;) ). I would recommend starting the entry though. (Emperor 12:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC))

"Steampunk as a subculture"

I think this entire section is problematic enough that it should be cut altogether. Most of its content is speculative---"steampunk fashion" is a great case in point: is this how steampunk fans dress? or is it how steampunk writers dress? or is it how people dress in steampunk novels?---and there are only two references, both of which are livejournal communities! The assertions about "steampunk music" are equally speculative. Has Tom Waits ever discussed steampunk? Is he influenced by it? Is he even aware of it? Once again, we have no answer. Furthermore, this secton has been a target for all sorts of speculative edits---the steampunk music list was, until just recently, much longer---with anonymous users putting their favorite band or fashion tendency in there. And why not, since there is no apparent standard for this ersatz subculture. Unreferenced, speculative, and a target for all manner of nonsense---I'd say that's the trifecta. Delete it. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:02, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree, RJ. WTF is steampunk muzik anyway, and who decides? I gonna get rid of the whole lot, and then what? Hank001 (talk) 11:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Vernian Process, and Abney Park have both stated that they create music with a "Steampunk" influence. VP, makes free downloadable music that is intended as Steampunk listening music. He was the first musician to create music strictly for a Steampunk setting. His wiki entry was deleted because it wasn't deemed notable, but within the Steampunk community, his work is rather well known. The same thing applies to Abney Park, they have a whole visual, and lyrical Steampunk style, and are probably more well known than VP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.82.98.51 (talk) 17:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

If that is true, there should be references which can be easily added that will back up the assertion. Without references, it all looks speculative. Saying, though, that the Vernian Process article was deleted as nonnotable does not make a good case for you here. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 19:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

That's a good point. There are a number of interviews with VP floating around the net. But none of them are with major publications. 63.82.98.51 (talk) 21:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not in favor, generally speaking, of deleting content that can be referenced. But, if references, or notable references cannot be found, the whole lot will have to go. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 21:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Hary Potter?

Perhaps the fictional devices in the HP universe fit this? Most are a combination of magic and fire/clockwork/creatures/etc. 172.166.138.11 (talk) 03:59, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

No. No way. Absolutely not. Harry Potter is not steampunk. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 04:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Dieselpunk (again)

Why is this section even in this article? It has nothing to do with steampunk. The section as it is currently written also strays off into all sorts of examples (Indiana Jones, Dark City, etc.) that do not have anything to do with dieselpunk. Some mention could, and should, be made that dieselpunk is the next step after steampunk, but this section strays far from the matter at hand. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

This article has always had scope problems. The best way to deal with it might be to punt the section to its own stub article and link to it. Chris Cunningham (talk) 12:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I like that idea. Why, though, is there not a dieselpunk article already? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 19:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

There was; it's now a redirect. I think now would be an appropriate time to reverse that decision. Be my guest. Chris Cunningham (talk) 11:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Dieselpunk. Ottens (talk) 11:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Excellence. Chris Cunningham (talk) 12:01, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Great work, Ottens. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 05:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Clockwork Heart

I added a sentence about Pagliassotti's Clockwork as an example of new works developing the steampunk theme.Mrpearcee (talk) 05:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

A Connecticut Yankee

The article leaves out what might well be the first steampunk story: Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, in which the protagonist brings 19th century technology to Arthurian Britain. Bill Levinson (talk) 00:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Steampunk is not merely the anachronistic introduction of technology to eras in which it doesn't belong. It's a specific combination of Industrial Revolution-era design and setting together with contemporary or future levels of effective technology. There's some leeway to change the setting, but it isn't quite that open-ended. I notice that this has been stated on the novel's article for well over a year; I'm going to remove that as well. Chris Cunningham (talk) 11:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Twain is mentioned in influences, with ref. To mention a specific work, we need a more specific cite.Yobmod (talk) 09:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Discworld, again

I'm removing the "increasingly steampunk" claim about Discworld as inaccurate. Discworld is high fantasy which happens to include various Flintstonesesque examples of anachronistic technology, normally implemented in some whimsical and improbable way. We need to avoid overreaching in our definition. (I can see someone reaching to start the flintpunk article already.) Chris Cunningham (talk) 13:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Ha ha ha!! Flintpunk! That's a good one. Yeah, I can see it coming... ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 05:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Been done! There wasan article in the online GURPS magazine (GURPS being the origin of "clockpunk") Pyramid on "stonepunk", with a full range of Flintstones devices. The same author has done articles on "bronzepunk" (advanced technology in Ancient Greece, what I think this article calls "sandalpunk") and "ironpunk" (advanced waterpower in Imperial Rome). Daibhid C (talk) 14:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

His Dark Materials

Is the Pullman trilogy steampunk or not? Frankly, I do not think so. To be steampunk, a book, story, movie, etc., has to have more than just a few steam gadgets here and there, it has to be a world that revolves around steam power. This is why so many things---Brazil, Harry Potter, etc.---that people have tried to add do not fit. A fantasy or sci-fi story with a steam gadget here or there will not do, anymore than a run-of-the-mill sci-fi story with computer networks could be considered cyberpunk. The punk element in steampunk is often forgotten, or conveniently left out, when considering what fits and what does not. Brazil, for example, has some punk elements, but, of course, it lacks the steam. His Dark Materials may have some steam elements, but punk? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 01:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

how about a compromice? i notice that in the shadow of the north there seems to be a steam gun features heavily in the plot... why do we not put something like phillip pullman books contain elements of steampunk.... citing the steam cannon, hdm's zeaplins and ballons as examples? --Dr noire (talk) 18:45, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The Steam Gun wasn't that Steampunk (I was a little disappointed really) and the use of balloons and zeppelins seems in keeping with the setting (as is the use of barges in HDM). There are certainly elements of the fantastical Victorian literature in both those series which a fan of Steampunk would appreciate as a parallel to Steampunk tales but I don't think they are Steampunk enough to warrant a mention here (as this is not intended to be completest and contain everything that might possibly be Steampunk) but the mention in the list of Steampunk works is not as out there as some of the additions (where people seem to equate recent fiction with a Victorian setting as being Steampunk) and a mention of Shadow in the North would seem fitting. (Emperor (talk) 15:42, 5 April 2008 (UTC))

Pullman has nothing to do with Steampunk, and a mention of Shadow in the North would be stretching it too far. --MahaPanta (talk) 21:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The film The Golden Compass is considered pretty steampunk nonetheless. I'm not familiar with Pullman's novels, nor have I seen the film yet, though. Ottens (talk) 22:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Minor uses of steam technology do not steampunk make. I ironed my shirt this morning with a steam iron, but my biogrophy would not be steampunk. Anyway, opinions are not important, only verification from reliable sources. (The deleted sentence was fact tagged, then deleted by a different user, which is how things should be done)Yobmod (talk) 10:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

CfD notice.

The related Category:Steampunk musical groups has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for Discussion page.

Citations

Someone removed my citations needed tags and didn't bother to comment , let alone bother to cite the sentence.

I dispute that Shelley was an influence - Frankenstein was written many years before steam engines were commercially available (according to wikipedia). Hence a specific citation is needed to back it up. The notes section is useless - i wouldn't even know which book to look in.--Yobmod (talk) 08:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Notable Members of the Steampunk Community

I would like to add a sub-section to "Steampunk as a subculture" that notes particularly active groups/individuals who are known by and large by those involved in the community. People who immediately come to mind for me are: Jake von Slatt, Datamancer, the Outlanders (Crew of the Amaranth), porkshanks (Molly Friedrich), Vernian Process, Abney Park, the crew of the H.M.S. Chronabelle, contributors to Steampunk Magazine, and Jake of All Trades. Do you believe this could be a valid portion of the article? Would you include anyone else? I can cite the validity of their use in the article by linking to interviews, group websites, etc, if you would like. Anonymist (talk) 20:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem i see is the lack of notability. A steam punk entusiast being famous amoungst a very small group of other enthusiast is not notable imo, and citation to their own web-sites would only show this.

For notability in the real world, citations are needed from third-party sources, rather than within fan circles.

Hence i support removing the section (which wasn't done by me).Yobmod (talk) 11:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

People like Von Slatt and "Datamancer" may be worth noting under "Steampunk as an object style". Other than that, I fail to see the notability of the persons you've mentioned. Ottens (talk) 12:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Quite. That is fine, I simply thought that it could potentially be useful for those who wanted examples of the fashion/gadget/writing style, and these were the groups/individuals who came to mind. I feel as though we should mention Steampunk Magazine SOMEWHERE in the article, though. Also, Yobmod, I removed the section because I thought that I should ask if anyone else supported it before I did any editing. :) Anonymist (talk) 00:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you'd need to apply notability to mentions of anyone or it could cause massive bloat as people add their friends, etc. I'd go with Ottens on this - both of those two gentlemen have been the subject of articles about there work, which are mentioned in the relevant section and it wouldn't be outrageous to mention them by name.

The magazine is mentioned - in the see also. (Emperor (talk) 02:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC))

Removing recent additions

"Many of the settings and puzzles in the classic game series Myst have a clear influence of Jules Verne and other steampunk styles. An early example of the steampunk style in video games can be found in LucasArts' The Eidolon, which was released in 1985. The world of Nirn from "The Elder Scrolls" series of computer RPGs also includes some steampunk influence. The ruins of the lost Dwemer race contain many steam based objects, including steam powered machinery and steam powered automata."

Unless there is something more to say about these games in relation to steampunk as a whole, i see no reason for them to be here, and not simply in the List of... article. Also they were uncited, as are most the "representative examples" in the whole article. Adding more does not increase the quality.Yobmod (talk) 18:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Steam Trek & External links

I noticed this (Steam Trek)external link being added and removed, with no-one discussing it here.

From looking at it, i would say it doesn't belong here. If the website is notable enough, it should have it's own wiki page, and the external link should go there. If it is not notable enough for that, it seems to have too narrow a focus to deserve an external link, which are there to help people learn more about the overall subject of steampunk.Yobmod (talk) 12:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

That is what should be done - we can't possibly include links to specific products as that just leads to link bloat. I do think it should be on the list of steampunk works and I'd have thought proving notability should be straightforward (Emperor (talk) 13:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC))

Also the new link to the list of games. Can this website be used as a reference, and the games listed there be transfered to the List of steampunk works page?If the site is respectable for an external link, it should be ok for a reference, yes?Yobmod (talk) 12:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

That link has been removed. It might make sense adding into the external links on the list page. Whether it is a reliable source is tricky - is it used elsewhere on other articles? I'd largely use it for a guide to check if there are any missing games but you'd need to check if the relevant article makes it clear it is Steampunk as it is unclear what their inclusion criteria is - is the Steampunk a minor/passing element in the game or are they using it to include games with a late 19thC/Victorian setting? So check the games on the list against existing criteria for inclusion here. (Emperor (talk) 13:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC))

I restored that link without checking the talk page first, sorry for that. I'll put it up on the List of steampunk works page where it seems to fit better. As for Steam Trek, I don't believe it deserved a link here. It's not related to steampunk on the whole, neither as a genre nor as a subculture. It might be notable enough to include it in the List of steampunk works though. Ottens (talk) 13:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

From Otten

I've deleted the link you added to the "External links" of the Steampunk entry, for Steam Trek is not related to steampunk on the whole, neither as a genre nor as a subculture. Unless you can provide a credible reason why a reference to Steam Trek ought to be included while links to regular steampunk fansites are not, the link must not be included.

In the future, please refrain from reverting edits without explanation. Address editing conflicts on a page's talk page. Ottens (talk) 15:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

From S. Vossler

Your argument that Steam Trek is not related to steampunk on the whole seems to be contrary to the primary definition of steampunk listed in the entry.

Steam Trek is a literary project focusing on an alternate history wherein the technological extrapolation of steam technology has penetrated into a well known science fiction genre. Steam power and mechanics are the basis for the technology and 19th century Victorian England provides the background, settings, props and character motivations.

All the trappings of steampunk technology and setting are present, for example; Medical technology includes the use of formalin lamps, cerebral phrenology, orgone injections, ect., Engineering technology includes firemen and stokers feeding dilythium coal into a furnace / boiler that powers the ship. The military command structure is copied lock, stock and barrel from late 1800 British traditions including piping onboard, the bell system of time keeping and the look and feel of uniforms.

The paralels to British situations is the essence of Steam Trek in that; Victoria is still on the throne, Britain is in an Empire Building mode (in the solar system instead of on Earth), The prejudice against non-caucations is still present but in the form of anti-alien sentiment, Britain traditional enemies are still present in new forms (German = Klinkon, French = Ferenchi, Russians = Romlians, Orientals = Borj, Irish Fennians = O’Ryans, etc.)

I think your hesitancy to accept Steam Trek as steampunk is that Steam Trek pushes far beyond the 20 to 30 years of divergent history as is present in most writings and extrapolates such historic alteration to 150 years or more. I do not think this distinction between Steam Trek and other steampunk stories is gounds to exclude it from mention

From Ottens:

Dear Sir, my reluctance to accept a link to Steam Trek on the entry about Steampunk is by no means inspired by an aversion to Steam Trek in any way. Quite to the contrary, I'm quite fond of Steam Trek, but as I pointed out, it is not related to steampunk on the whole. Steam Trek is an example of steampunk as a literary genre, but it provides no information about the genre. Therefore, no "External link" to it should be included.

This issue, however, ought to be discussed on the Steampunk Talkpage if you remain to insist that a link to Steam Trek is proper. Until the matter is resolved, refrain from constantly adding your link, or I will report your conduct as vandalism. Ottens

From S Vossler

The Steampunk entry is filled with examples of various media which exemplify the particular characteristics of Steampunk(ery). Why do you not think Steam Trek is an example of Steampunk. That question has never been answered in any talk section or discussion post. All that was ever said is “Steam Trek is not related to steampunk on the whole” with no explanation or rationalization as to why or what elements do not make Steam Trek fit to be a proper example.

I would also like to know why my repeated undoing of the deletion of Steam Trek is considered vandalism but the repeated deletion of the reference is not? I am not that familiar with the way Wikipedia is edited but this has not been a very congenial experience so far.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Stephen_Vossler"

I would certainly argue that Steam Trek is very much a steampunk themed game. The website's page may not include information specifically about the steampunk genre, but the Victorian inspired Star trek pastiche is very much along the same lines as Space 1889. I would argue for the re-instatement of the link in the List of steampunk works. ~ Brother William (talk) 15:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, it is certainly steampunk, and should be listed as such. It just doesn't deserve to be an external link, any more than the other 100's of individual steampunk works. It is just one minor example.Yobmod (talk) 17:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

External Links : Boston Globe article

Ought there to be an "External Link" to the Boston Globe article? It is already refered to in the Notes. Ottens (talk) 16:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

There are now 3 articles externally linked (Boston Globe, NYTs, Phoenix), all saying identical things, interviewing the same people, and using similar/same pictures. Do we need all 3? Should we just pick the best? Boston Globe is already referenced twice. Maybe using one of the others as a reference (to keep it in the article somewhere), and the "best" one as external link.

But which?Yobmod (talk) 09:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Though the content of these three articles is indeed pretty similar, I'm quite in favor of keeping external links to them. Perhaps adding a category of "Coverage in the media" to the External links section? Ottens (talk) 17:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

oki. think it is not a problem now, as long as the external links don't get any longer. (Although it seems to 90% of the edits are people trying to make it into a linkfarm!)Yobmod (talk) 17:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Could we add a message to the External links section, invisible to regular readers but visible when editing the section, warning not to include links to websites which aren't relevant to steampunk on the whole? Ottens (talk) 09:02, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that would be a very good idea, and it should include an internal link to the relevant WP:EL page. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 14:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Bioshock is steampunk?

The xbox360 & PC shooter set in an alternative 1950's dystopia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rentachimp (talk • contribs) 18:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it's not in this article. I think it is in biopunk. Should it be? I've never playedYobmod (talk) 18:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Good call. I reckon it has steampunk elememts - maybe it's retro-bio punk or something 82.14.198.55 (talk) 20:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Retro-futurism, perhaps, but I think it's considered biopunk. Certainly not steampunk though. For one, there's no steam! Ottens (talk) 21:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't need to have steam in order to be steampunk. It needs to be from the era in which steam-power was widely prevalent. --Tylerdmace (talk) 18:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Which Bioshock isn't. (At least not in the sense relevant to steampunk; as to this day we use steam to power electrical generators). CaptainAmaranth (talk) 17:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

lol yeah, i was just thinkning about some aspects of the decor and the way the big daddies look and move. rentachimp Rentachimp (talk) 09:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Bioshock should be listed here. It has many steampunk elements. --Tylerdmace (talk) 18:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Telectroscope

I moved the following here:

In May-June 2008, the artist Paul St George created a steampunk-themed art installation in London and New York City called the "telectroscope."

It is very recent, so i think needs a cite before it is notable enough for the article, or proof it is steampunk. There are lots of cites in its own article, but i don't know which should be used hereYobmod (talk) 13:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

This NY Times article calls it a "Victorian-looking contraption" so I recommend that one as a citation. I do think the Telectroscope notable enough to be included, perhaps with a reference to the meet-up which several steampunk enthusiasts have planned?[1]

Might I also recommend a slight rewording for this particular information to be more in line with the text of the section:

The artist group Kinetic Steam Works[17] created a Steampunk Tree House[18] for Burningman 2007, and also brought a working steam engine to the event in 2006 and 2007. In May-June 2008, multimedia artist and sculptor Paul St George exhibited outdoor interactive video installations linking London and New York City in a Victorian era-styled "telectroscope".[2] Steampunk enthusiasts from both cities organized a trans-atlantic wave on June 7th, briefly prior to White Mischief's Around the World in 80 Days steampunk-themed event. Ottens (talk) 15:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

sounds good, i've readdedYobmod (talk) 09:59, 20 June 2008 (UTC)