Talk:Steamboats of the Skeena River

Started this finally, going to add images, references ect.CindyBo 00:27, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, done for now.CindyBo 02:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

separate ship articles

In re the comments on my talkpage about this and related pages, it's preferable that notable vessels have their own articles; especially in cases like the Mount Royal, which is notable in its own right because of its special story; the length of its section here is apt demonstration of its article-worthiness. I'm not familiar with the histories of the other vessels here but in all likelihood they were coastal vessels as well, although some were built for the Skeena, no? So while an overall essay discussing History of steamboats on the Skeena River (which might be a more proper wiki title, I'm not sure) is a good thing, bear in mind that the vessels can/should have other articles where worthwhile; their names shouldn't be bolded in the main text by the way; standard convention in all printing is to use italics. I'd say break out the Mount Royal as its own article, and I'm pretty sure the Union has a downcoast history too - I've seen that name before. This page should not so much be about the steamboats themselves as about their service/business, the era/economy and people; particulars of the vessels follow a certain ship infobox format with tonnage, registry etc (see anything in Category:Ships; you might also want to add yourself to that WikiProject too - partly because many of the vessels in BC history you may document may also be part of US history, as is often the case).Skookum1 07:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I recall the Mount Royal also worked on the Stikine, as well as the Inside Passage; and was originally from, like so many others, the Columbia or the Sacremento or somewhere else; this is why there's need for a standalone article for it, y'see. It can appear in articles on steamboats on whichever river/route but it should have its own article also. Mount Royal (ship) may be taken, Mount Royal (sternwheeler) or Mount Royal (steamboat) would be OK (check usages in Category:Ships and if it's HMS there may be a Royal Navy vessel HMS Mount Royal (let' see if that link works...no, and per List of Royal Navy ship names there wasn't one) but, hmm, it was American-origin so most likely SS Mount Royal....well, looks like you've got your pick, but one will be preferable depending on sources/registry.Skookum1 08:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean about the seperate artictles.I was thinking the same thing for the captains as well, as there are many crossovers to other regions, ships ect. The same big names keep coming up over and over. I meant this page more as an index type of staring point that leads to individual articles, in this case, not yet created. Definitely the Mount Royal deserves one. According to Art Downs, it and most of the others were built in Victoria specifically for the Skeena route and have no American connections. There was obviously money and optimism to spare in those days. There were also a dozen or so built for some railway in that area that didn't materialize, from the Stikine River to the Yukon.CindyBo 19:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I doublechecked my references, and with the exception of the Union which has a vague past, all of the others were built and launched in British Columbia, at Victoria, New Westminster or Port Essington in response to the specific needs of the Skeena River, in this case, the Omenica Gold Rush and later, GTP rail construction. Many did work along the coast as well, but their primary work was on the Skeena.CindyBo 00:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, good to know; I read so much stuff I forget which is what often enough, esp. with the number of ship stories/references I've seen/read. I guess the crossovers for me are because the ones I know better were the Fraser boats, in the onset of the gold rush when everything motorized came from California (or was assembled on the spot, as were the boilers for a vessel on Harrison Lake which ran the first year of the rush by sail...), and also the Klondike Rush when of course shipping was American dominated around here; because of that law of theirs re american port-to-american port rules, which they passed specifically to put the squeeze on vancouver and victoria (sorry my keyboard sticks so not gonna fix those caps). But glad you're seeing the way; yes, the captains do get their own articles and these boats-on-rivers page should be about all of them, in summary, with maybe a discussions of the economcs/why-and-wherefore of the service, and it's even possible for someone to eventaully add tonnage and value to the local economy, if such amterial gets dug up; anything can (Gassy Jack was the capt. of the Umatilla, which AIRC was the first steamer to reach Yale from New West). As per the Stikine railway, yeah that would have used the Little Tahltan River over into the Sheslay (the NE-SE arm of the Taku) and via Atlin...but that was in a period when it was assumed the whole north would permanently boom, and Atlin et al would be as wealthy as Dawson, and great cities would develop etc; the route is the same as that intended by the Collins Overland Telegraph. Navigation history on the Stikine when you get to it requires some reference to the Alaska Boundary Treaty's particular clauses concerning the Stikine and British/Canadian rights of shipping on it, which were grandfathered from an old deal with the Russians (when the boundary was drawn, the estuary was at saltwater; now it's silted in downstream a few miles). How many vessels were there on the Omineca? And on the Stuart? Any on the Nation? There were some on the Peace, yes?Skookum1 00:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

On the Stuart there was only two, Blin Wright's Enterprise which made one trip up the Stuart to get to Takla Landing on Takla Lake so he could serve the miners at the Manson's Creek field which was only fifty miles inland from there, the Enterprise was wrecked, trying to get back though, and was left there. The only other one that ran on the Stuart was the Chilco under Captain Bonser, who is on this page too. Frank Swannell, who did much of the surveying in that area chartered her for many of his trips. If by Omenica, you mean for the rush and all that, the closest way was just via the Stuart again, because the Skeena was only navigable as far inland as Hazelton, which was still 115 miles from the gold fields. I don't know anything about the Nation. The Peace seemed to only have six or so, a couple of HBC boats and a few private ventures, some English baron built a big fancy one named the DA Thomas. I'm pretty sure that none were on the Bulkley at all. Articles on any and all of these northern boats and their rivers, is a relatively simple matter, because they were built for specific uses on specific rivers and were usually wrecked or abandoned shortly thereafter. On this page you'll notice that only the SS Skeena survived, other than the railroad boats which were dismantled and reused. The Skeena did go down south and worked for many more years. It seems in the Lower Fraser, Okanagan ect, those rules go out the window, like you say, some sternwheelers came from the states from Oregon, California and so on and worked on different rivers for different reasons. I guess my question then is whether it's worthwhile creating articles on each one of these Northern boats that lived and died in one place when little more is known about them than what is on a page like this one.CindyBo 02:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I doublechecked on the Omineca River, no sternwheelers mentioned anywhere I've ever seen. As far as I know that gold rush was on Manson's Creek which came out of Babine Lake, so Takla would have been quite close, perhaps closer than the Omenica River. Maybe the digging were along there too, but I truthfully have no idea. I guess I got off topic, anyway, Omineca, no sternwheelers. Yukon River, lots and lots, a hundred, two hundred mentioned in places.CindyBo 03:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like th ones you've mentioned on the Stuart would be best covered by Omineca Gold Rush, which I still haven't gotten around to writing; the other approach would have been to have the Upper Fraser article as Steamboats in the Northern Interior of British Columbia, but I think since the're so tied into the gold rush histories, esp. on the Stuart re the Omineca Rush and on the Stikine during that rush, that it's easier to just write the gold rush histories; unless it's a big roster, as it was, overall, on the Stikine wasn't it? I may only get a chance to draft the stub for the Omineca Gold Rush or other gold rushes (see other British Columbia Gold Rushes for general tone; e.g. Rock Creek and Big Bend were "winged" off what little I had on hand when stubbing); Omineca's quite the story and deserves to be told....mind you, so do they all.Skookum1 03:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The Yukon: Yeah, I know; read through Berton a couple of times; even on the Mackenzie and that one mad voyage up the Red River of the Arctic. But the guys who went around via Nome and couldn't get past Fairbanks, after already going thousands upon thousands of miles only to grind to a halt when the river did....all quite the story; List of vessels on the Yukon River or List of ships on the Yukon River may already, in fact, exist. If not, perhaps it should, as a start-point for the various ship/story articles that are indicated.Skookum1 03:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

NB all gold rush-related vessels should really have Category:Gold rushes and in the case of the Yukon, i.e. anything that was Dawson-bound even if it didn't make it, would get the Category:Klondike Gold Rush, as would be the case with the SS Sophie as it's a Klondike-related event and/or ship.Skookum1 03:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I looked back at Art Down's Paddlewheels again and went over the adventures of the Enterprise, admittedly I'd paid little attention to it before. The BX and the Charlotte are more often remembered in these parts. Anyway, Downs says that the Enterprise made three trips a week for eight years from Soda Creek to Quesnel 1863-1871. This was, in part, for Barkerville's sake, as well. Downs then goes on to tell of how the Enterprise was taken to Takla Lake for the Omineca Gold Rush. This is the route: Up the Fraser to the Nechako River to the Stuart River across Stuart Lake, into Tachie River and onto Trembleur Lake, up Middle River and finally to Takla Lake. They left Quesnel in June 1871, no specific date, and arrived on August 12th. Small wonder it took so long with that route. Downs then explains how the Enterprise arrived too late as the new supply routes had been made to the Omineca district by then via the Skeena, because of the HBC's Captain Moore and the rival canoe freight service he and Cunningham had at that time, referred to in this article. The Enterprise was then abandoned on Trembluer Lake, says Downs, I've also read that it was wrecked on Trembluer Lake. Irregardless, I'm sure the Enterprise should be mentioned in an article about the Omenica Gold Rush, though she undoubtedly did more for Barkerville, but the Enterprise was the only one with any association to the Omineca Gold Rush from the upper Fraser River. The Chilco didn't come along until 1909 and she went up the Stuart for Swannell. The little Fort Fraser might have gone to the Stuart, though not as far as Takla. The other nine never went near the Stuart, it was considered almost impossible for the BX boats and the big railway steamers to squeeze onto the Nechako, much less get as far as Wright and Bonser did. The main purpose of the upper Fraser sternwheelers was serving Quesnel and Fort George before and during rail construction. Even after 1914, there was still a need for them as Quesnel was often isolated, wagon road or no road, as is proven by Quesnel asking the government to subsidize the BX boats to run, even after the war. As for the name issue, I also noticed that Art Downs refers to the 12 upper Fraser Boats as being of the "Cariboo and Central Interior". I was also thinking about how strongly the association is with the sternwheelers in this article and the Omineca and Klondike, really none of these 16 were built for specifically for a gold rush either, the early ones were built for the Collins Telegraph Co and the Omineca gold rush was long over by the time the HBC built the Caledonia. Certainly the Klondike would have had a huge effect on the area, but these boats were built for different though related purposes, rail construction, supplying local merchants ect.CindyBo 08:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I haven't read your recent comments just yet, but I know I wanted to add on this page about Blin Wright's steamer service, or rather to explain about why I said that, is I'm sure it's in that Communications in Early British Columbia thesis, and I've seen another comment about why he didn't build the road to Quesnel, which would have been easy enough; he already owned a hotel at Alexandria and had started a steamer; it seems to have been the north end of the River Trail, although that branched off at Big Bar etc; nobody took vessels down to Riske Creek did they? Anyway, the thesis I recall mentions the source as a news comment or politician complaining or opining about blin wright's motives and business interests in relation to the road; all such roads were controversial as being toll roads, which were illegal in the old country and a hot-button issue there, but necessary here; the Cariboo Road proper was also a toll road, as were most. But many in the earliest days were privately-operated, as also usually ferries. BTW you might want to expand List of crossings of the Fraser River - I only expanded it up to where I knew. There are some nice old Swannell photos of Soda Creek Canyon, by the way, in BC Archives, I think old enough to PD100, easy enough to PD50. That's redlinked to suggest it's needed as an article ;-0.Skookum1 06:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

pix from Commons

Some pretty spectacular shots:

• File:No 390 SS Omineca, shooting the Big Canyon, Skeena River, British Columbia (HS85-10-25540).jpg
• File:No 297 SS Port Simpson shooting Kitselas Big Canyon backwards, No 1 (HS85-10-25538).jpg
• File:No 291 The SS Inlander lining in the Big Canyon, Kitselas, British Columbia No 2 (HS85-10-25537).jpg

More to come, no doubt; still digging.Skookum1 (talk) 03:57, 11 July 2013 (UTC)