Talk:Statue of Frederick Douglass (Rochester, New York)

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Statue of Frederick Douglass (Rochester, New York) was nominated as a Art and architecture good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (August 2, 2020). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

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Image

@Featous: I noticed you removed the image from the 'monuments and memorials removed during GF protests' list. We should remove here as well? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:40, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! We must be on the same wavelength. I was already on this page and pulling up some sources. I'm about to turn this into an article for the original statue, with a section for the 13 epoxy and fiberglass near-replicas created for Douglas' 200th birthday, including the one that was just removed. As the first statue of an African American in the country, it definitely deserves an article. Give me a little bit of time while I do some structural edits. - Featous (talk) 15:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Featous, Oh, wonderful, thank you. Looking forward to your article improvements. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:48, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty much done with all I wanted to do. Thanks to you and The Anome in particular for all the good edits. The edit conflicts were a pain, but that's pretty good for a five-hour old article. Cheers, Featous (talk) 19:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Featous, Thank you so much for your work here. Sorry if the edit conflicts were annoying, but I agree, the entry looks great for such a new article. @MagicatthemovieS and The Anome: Thanks to you both as well! I think with just a bit more work, this could meet GA criteria. Any interest in nominating? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:42, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Featous, Another Believer, and The Anome: I'll nominate it in the coming days if that's all right with everyone. I'd also be willing to nominate it for DYK.MagicatthemovieS (talk) 00:51, 7 July 2020 (UTC)MagicatthemovieS[reply]

MagicatthemovieS, Great! Thanks, ---Another Believer _(Talk) 01:41, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Save Outdoor Sculpture! entry

https://siris-artinventories.si.edu/ipac20/ipac.jsp?&profile=ariall&source=~!siartinventories&uri=full=3100001~!8228~!0#focus

---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@MagicatthemovieS: Before the GA nom gets picked up, you might consider fleshing out the Description section with a few additional sentences per this source. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:01, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Statue of Frederick Douglass (Rochester, New York)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Epicgenius (talk · contribs) 16:34, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I will take up this review. I'll read through this and leave some in-depth comments later. epicgenius (talk) 16:34, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

General comments

Lead:

A statue of Frederick Douglass sculpted by Sidney W. Edwards was installed in Rochester, New York in 1899.[1] It was commissioned by the African-American activist John W. Thompson.[1][2] - This can probably be combined into two sentences.
~~Visualising slavery: Art across the African diaspora - This should be capitalized. WorldCat may lowercase it, but the actual book title is a proper phrase and should be capitalized.~~
New York Central Train Station is not a useful red link, and can refer to any station on the New York Central Railroad. A more appropriate red link would be Rochester station (New York Central Railroad), in conformance with WP:USSTATION. "Train station" should be lowercase since it's a common noun. Moreover, this seems to be the same station discussed at Louise M. Slaughter Rochester Station#History.
The statue was relocated again in October 2019 to be the centerpiece of a new Frederick Douglass Memorial Plaza - this is grammatically awkward, and can be rephrased to "The statue was relocated again in October 2019, becoming the centerpiece..." Since we don't normally move something to be something else.

Description

This section isn't very detailed. This can be expanded with details about the material, dimensions, etc. of the statue. You can also add info about what the "pillar structures" are, and where they are located in relation to the main statue.

History

Thompson, a waiter at the Powers Hotel, was the leader of Eureka Lodge #36 of Free and Accepted Masons, a lodge with mostly Black members that was associated with Prince Hall Freemasonry, which largely did not admit non-white members. - This is a run-on sentence. It should be split after "a lodge with mostly Black members", either with a semicolon or a period.
~~Thompson was prompted by the Soldiers and Sailors Monument in Washington Square Park, which did not depict any black figures. - citation needed~~
On December 21, appeals for funding for the monument were made in Rochester newspapers, but there was opposition from those who thought that the existing monument already represented all of the war dead. - citation needed
On December 22, a meeting held in the offices of state legislator Charles S. Baker decided to erect a shaft for the black war dead topped with a statue of Douglass. - should this be attached to the preceding paragraph instead?
~~New York Central Train Station - lowercase "train station".~~
On June 8, 1899, the completed statue was finally unveiled in front of ten thousand people, with speakers including then-Governor Theodore Roosevelt. - Speakers where? I assume it's a ceremony, but this has to be explicitly mentioned.
In 1941, the city decided to move the statue from the congested corner of Central Avenue and St. Paul Street to a quiet location overlooking the natural amphitheater at Highland Park. - Why?
A time capsule was found beneath the base of the statue in the process - Since this isn't mentioned previously, I think it would be good to find out when the time capsule was installed, if applicable, or whether its origin is unknown.
~~In 2019, the statue was moved to be the centerpiece of Frederick Douglass Memorial Plaza. - Same issue as above, except "moved to be" is an even more undesirable wording.~~
~~The police were investigating as of July 6, 2020. - I don't think you need to mention the exact date, just that the police opened an investigation.~~

Douglass Bicentennial replicas

~~There were a wide variety of events - There was a wide variety~~
~~In general, most of the list items don't end in periods while some do. This has to be consistent.~~

POV and coverage

POV is not a problem per se.
More coverage could be added about 20th-century history and the statue's description. As it stands, about a third of the article is dedicated to the planning and construction of the statue, and another third is dedicated to history over the last few years (including replicas). I really can't find info on the mid-period of the statue's history.

Sources

Visualising slavery : art across the African diaspora. - publication date? Added!
What makes The Root a reliable source?
- I've linked "The Root" to The Root (magazine). ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:08, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - OK. We need a publication date too. epicgenius (talk) 19:41, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - Added!MagicatthemovieS (talk) 22:22, 8 July 2020 (UTC)MagicatthemovieS[reply]

Images and copyright

Images are all appropriately licensed.
A copyright violation search found some close paraphrasing, excluding the long quotes. Fixed!MagicatthemovieS (talk) 22:36, 13 July 2020 (UTC)MagicatthemovieS[reply]

Overall

This article is going to need some work to be brought up to GA status. The major problem here is coverage gaps in the description and history. Referencing is also a minor issue. epicgenius (talk) 17:21, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Featous, Another Believer, and The Anome: Also pinging other editors who have expanded this page recently. epicgenius (talk) 17:27, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed the majority of the issues. Would anyone else like the lend a helping hand?MagicatthemovieS (talk) 18:07, 8 July 2020 (UTC)MagicatthemovieS[reply]

MagicatthemovieS, I'm working on the Description section using the Save Outdoor Sculpture entry (see link on article's talk page), which also mentions the fabricator. You might see what other claims can be added to the page based on this source. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:17, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@MagicatthemovieS: I've expanded the Description section; I hope this helps. You might note above which of the concerns have been addressed and how. That way others know what work remains. I've followed the development of this article but haven't done much research beyond the SOS entry. This will mostly be your lift, since you nominated the article, but hopefully others will revisit as well so we can all get this article promoted. Thanks again! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:54, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Epicgenius: Is the "Description" section now sufficiently detailed?MagicatthemovieS (talk) 19:16, 8 July 2020 (UTC)MagicatthemovieS[reply]

@MagicatthemovieS: The description section is much better now than when I first looked. Some clarifying detail should be added about the pillar structures, though, since there's no indication of how these structures relate to the statue. epicgenius (talk) 19:39, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Epicgenius: I'll assume this means the nom is being abandoned. @MagicatthemovieS: Can you confirm? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:36, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I can confirm.MagicatthemovieS (talk)MagicatthemovieS

All right. I will fail this nomination per the above comment and the diff provided by Another Believer. epicgenius (talk) 15:36, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.