Talk:State Children's Aid Association

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Public domain text incorporated in the article

Rosiestep, I came here from Amy Louisa Rye. According to the references, this article incorporates text from four public domain sources, which all date to the 19th century. I think some of the text should be attributed and/ or quoted, could you have a look? I can't do it myself as I can only see reference 1 and a version of reference 2 via the Internet Archive. For example I am not sure what is meant by "individual treatment for children". For background, the ODNB article on Henrietta Barnett says "She [Barnett] played a leading role in the departmental committee appointed to inquire into 'the condition of Poor Law Children', which led her and her sister Alice's husband, Dr Ernest Hart, to form in 1896 the State Children's Association, with Henrietta Barnett as honorary secretary." TSventon (talk) 17:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

TSventon, thanks for reading the article. The entire article is created using PD sources and each of the 4 sources in the References section contains the {{Source-attribution}} template. I'm not sure what other attribution is required? I also don't recall including anything that isn't sourced to those 4 references. One thing that could be done is to add an inline citation for each sentence but that is not a common practice with articles that are entirely made of PD sources. A friendly FYI that as I'm unable to access the ODNB article you mention, it will fall on someone else to add that information/reference. --Rosiestep (talk) 20:25, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rosiestep, I am not worried about copyright, but more about NPOV when using primary sources. I haven't tried explaining this before, but I believe that all the sources should be treated as primary sources. The guidance I found was

Wikipedia:Plagiarism#Public-domain sources says If the external work is in the public domain, but it contains an original idea or is a primary source, then it may be necessary to alter the wording of the text (for example, not including all the text from the original work, or quoting some sections, or specifically attributing to a specific source an opinion included in the text) to meet the Wikipedia content policies of neutral point of view and Wikipedia:No original research (in particular the restrictions on the use of primary sources).
Help:Adding open-license text to Wikipedia says The text must also follow Wikipedia's three core content policies of neutral point of view, verifiability and no original research. When integrating other sources, it is very important to distinguish opinions and interpretations made by the original author from verifiable content that has a neutral point of view. To do this, you may have to refocus the text on surveying the topic, remove interpretations and attributing points of view within the work. Attributing points of view can be done b adding citations to either the source text or its references, and by adding in-text attribution of these opinions e.g "According to [ORIGINAL AUTHOR], "[QUOTE]".
You should be able to access the ODNB via WP:The Wikipedia Library (unless, of course, you can't for some reason).
The Archives Hub suggests that the organisation was active between 1897 and 1900. TSventon (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

TSventon, thanks for the further guidance. I think the article meets policy requirements now. Do you agree?

I added information from arhiveshub. I can't access the ODNB via TWL. --Rosiestep (talk) 04:10, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rosiestep, Thank you, you have resolved my NPOV concerns, I can see the other sources as snippet view so I may be able to add back some content with attribution later. TSventon (talk) 11:41, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Further sources

Rosiestep, I have added a reference to a 1948 book with four paragraphs of coverage, hopefully you can see it. It says that the association closed in 1937 around the time of the death of its chair James Lovat-Fraser. Obviously its detailed objectives changed as the environment changed. TSventon (talk) 14:21, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

TSventon, great find, in general, and the disestablishment date in particular! I can view p. 123 of Voluntary Social Services but not p. 124. I won't be editing the article further at this time so no worries about edit conflict if you wish to continue expanding the article with the material in the that book or others. --Rosiestep (talk) 14:34, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rosiestep, I have added a 21st century (!) source to confirm that Henrietta Barnett was the prime mover. I think that makes notability clearer as several of the earlier sources were close to the organisation. I am hampered by my lack of detailed knowledge of the history of the Poor Law, so I will probably leave the article for a bit.

If you can only see one page in Google Books, it is sometimes possible to switch between new and classic versions and manually change the page number in the url.

Incidentally Voluntary Social Services says that the organisation closed in 1937 after the death of its chairman, which was in 1938. It may be confused with the death of Henrietta Barnett in 1936. TSventon (talk) 02:54, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]