Talk:Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Edit war on the article of the Cultural impact of Star Wars regarding IX: Duel of the Fates comic and the fan-edits of Episode IX

This article should acknowledge the controversies of the unmade IX: Duel of the Fates script, which should be included in more detail. Because it´s unmade plot was part of the creative process that devolved into what was released in theaters. Also because it has been compared a lot to the very negatively worst Rotten Tomatoes scored received movie that got made (and many of those articles called ¨Duel of the Fates¨ better than the movie that got made in some significant ways like representation (which to a degree is possibly of systemic bias not to include it). It and the controversy of the movie is compared to the Snyder Cut controversy in a negative way), and also. Furthermore from being a part of the production process, it should also be included because it got it´s own cultural impact with a fan-made comic (and one of the persons in the movie suggests it should be made into a cartoon or movie, and that it treated his character better and people insist on not including an interview were he very clearly discusses that his character´s role could had possibly been reduced due to racism). That raises the Duel of the Fates script above the notability of the average unmade script. The absence of any mention of the Duel of the Fates unmade script, and the fact that it is relegated to a side note is bias that makes the actual movie seem less worse than it actually is. In any other movie they would had included it because it´s existence was part of the production process. The existence of the comic shows a lot of people don´t like the movie that was released (and excluding a controversial part of the production to make a terrible movie, I do believe qualifies as bias). I don´t think the article should pass as GA Good Article, until the issue is resolved properly. The Duel of fates concept art was also heavilly shared during the Black lives matter protests against racism, which also gives it a lot of extra weight to be included here (and kind of makes it more timely and relevant than anything that Rise of Skywalker did as a film). Rosvel92 (talk) 08:05, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Some of these details may be relevant to individual character pages and Star Wars fandom, but not here. The perceived collective opinion of people on the Internet isn't very encyclopedic, unless its properly contextualized and cited to a reliable source (a scholar, not ComicBook.com). We do have a footnote about Trevorrow and Connolly's script and the elements which were kept in the film. Sidenote: the tilde is not an apostrophe, and umlauts aren't quote marks. UpdateNerd (talk) 23:35, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Duel of the Fates seems to be way more than a footnote. The user Bogger (talk) took my my edit on this article, and used it as the basis for a Draft:Star Wars:Duel of the Fates (which I helped edit, but needs opinions different than mine). So there is a now a draft about the unmade script. He and myself think there might be enough notability in the article, but he doesn´t think there might be enough to include the bulk in this article, which is the subject of an edit war (although there clearly is enough notability to include it in either Cultural impact of Star Wars, and also some but not all content should be merged into this article or the Sequel Trilogy one). Either way, it should be acknowledged by wikipedia that some people sided with Duel of the Fates, preferring instead of the Rise of Skywalker (which is understandable as per Rotten Tomatoes is the worst live-action Star Wars movie). I don´t think the problem is over, until it is decided, which of the information is worth keeping, and then it should be included (wherever it ends up). However, since the Duel of the Fates unmade script has enough notability, more content about it should be included in this article. It is the objective thing to do, even if it makes Rise of Skywalker look bad. Otherwise is clear bias.-Rosvel92 (talk) 08:05, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

The draft of the Duel of the Fates article unmade script has been expanded to include a section describing the huge amount of criticism received by the huge amount of plot-holes in Rise of Skywalker. As well as the Force ghosts fan-edit. Including a plot-hole that basically describes that some people interpret a plot-hole that basically makes Palpatine win at the end of the film, due to the Jedi voices were imitations by Palpatine (which as noted, bizarrely creates less plot-holes with the prequel trilogy because half those voices never did the required training to become Force ghosts that was established in the prequels). Then it also says by multiple websites that the tie-ins of the movie were very negatively received and that The Mandalorian, Clone Wars and the videogames released close to the film, all were better received than the movie. The narrative is sustained by multiple websites, there is a lot of relevant information suggesting the film received a worse reception that could be merged into this article, there would not be that much of a problem if the info were already mentioned on other articles and this article linked to them. But as it stands, I perceive that is very clear that this article should lose it´s good article status until it the problem is solved and acknowledged. Like for example, Time is a very credible source at criticizing the sexism and the film perceived racial problems. Perhaps more serious of a source than the ones currently cited in the article, then the producer and a star of the film acknowledge that the film might been damaged by racism. But somehow the editors of this article make a clear effort for this article not to acknowledge it. Then basically the writer of the film is saying that they made the ¨creative choice¨ and somehow it gets reverted too. There is some clear issues with this article, specially with all the Duel of the Fates info supporting that.

Eliana Dokterman, writing for Time magazine, called the film and its retcons "problematic", perceiving J.J. Abrams' choices as having been made to appease the complaints leveled by a toxic contingent of online fandom angered by The Last Jedi, in particular the trolls who harassed Johnson and several cast members. It criticized how the film treated characters of color and women, particularly the characters Finn, Poe Dameron, and specially Rose Tico (played by Kelly Marie Tran), whose screentime was significantly reduced. 

In regards to the criticism towards Rose Tico reduced screen-time, screenwriter Chris Terrio said it was due to the difficulty of including the deceased Carrie Fisher archive footage in scenes planned to feature both characters. However, the VFX team of Industrial Light and Magic denied Terrio's claims, prompting Terrio to admit that it was actually a creative and narrative decision made by himself and Abrams during the writing process. Poe Dameron's backstory as a smuggler was also criticized as being racist towards Latinos, as Dameron is portrayed by Guatemalan-born actor Oscar Isaac. Two different writers from Forbes criticized Terrio's or Lucasfilms attempts at explaining away the film's issues.

In September 2020, John Boyega also criticized the film for sidelining the characters played by persons of color, mostly the ones played by him, and Tran (but extending the complaint to most characters played by people of color, including, Poe, Lando, and Jahna). In November 2020, John Boyega revealed that the controversy surrounding the diminished roles of the characters played by people of color in the made version of the film led him to have a "very honest conversation" with Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy, who supported his claims.

Rosvel92 (talk) 08:32, 11 May 2021 (UTC)Rosvel92 (talk)

Still unclear why these details would be relevant. As it regards perceived racial sidelining, virtue signalling does not a good article make. UpdateNerd (talk) 08:40, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

The draft about the Draft:Star Wars:Duel of the Fates unmade script is no longer a stub, which means it´s info perhaps has enough weight to either be it´s own article, or to be merged into this article (and/or other articles), and also supports that this film was received way more negatively than this article currently implies. There seems to be enough info to justify adding a discussion template at the top of this page. Also the info on the perceived racial sidelining should be definitely included because a lot of the people involved on the film, according to those sources. You have the VFX company of the film commenting, you have the writer of the film commenting about it, you got an actor from the film complaining about it, you got the producer of the film commenting about it, you have Time magazine complaining about it, and basically a lot of opinions about the Duel of the Fates unmade script clearly evidencing it. It is complete bias to not include it.Rosvel92 (talk) 05:39, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

We won’t be adding any of that, sorry. Toa Nidhiki05 12:49, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, fan edits are not notable. None of this fanboi whining is. Rosvel, drop the stick, or else I am going to have to pursue a topic ban for you from Star Wars related articles. Far too many of your edits have been wrong headed and obnoxiously pushed I think you need to just plain stop. Far too often they haven't been a benefit. oknazevad (talk) 15:05, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Kelly Marie Tran's race/ethnicity

At the start of the last paragraph of Critical response, Kelly Marie Tran is described as an Asian actress. She's actually Asian-American, or, more specifically, Vietnamese-American. The article isn't protected so I can make the edit myself, but I'm wondering if there's a reason it hasn't been made already (e.g., word count limit). —⁠71.105.198.152 (talk) 05:53, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Recent Edits

I made edits to improve the overall plot summary, specifically there was excessive semi-colon use, which should only be used sparingly for effect and no more than one or two in any article. The summary was rife with clunky prepositional phrasing ("of this", "of that", "of which", "of those", "of", "of", "of", among others) that only adds "dead weight" to sentences and is typical novice-writer prose. In addition, there were unnecessary details that added length. Also eliminated quoted dialogue and additional phrasing giving an "in universe" style. Finally, not everyone reading the plot summary has seen the movie and knows what a "wayfinder" is (I didn't before seeing the film and thought it was a person). That is why I explained it. These changes have improved the article. Continually reverting them is creating an edit war and is being possessive of the article by blocking others from making changes.PNW Raven (talk) 02:40, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Fan Fiction Editing

An anonymous editor continually adds an awkwardly constructed sentence at the end of the plot summary about Rey "honoring" the Skywalker "bloodline" by watching the sunset. This is total Fan Fiction based on personal interpretation. There is nothing in the film to support this view. It is creating an edit war. This anonymous editor refuses to discuss or justify the changes. PNW Raven (talk) 17:33, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

The only way we could include this would would be if we either had a reliable third party source making a an analysis or a explicit comment from a director or producer saying that the scene was shot for for that particular reason.--65.93.193.134 (talk) 22:34, 20 December 2021 (UTC)