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Reviewer: Shooterwalker (talk · contribs) 00:26, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]


This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


I'll take this one. Look for comments from me before the week is out. Thanks for working on such a historic game. Shooterwalker (talk) 00:26, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Let's try to work through this section by section. We can then return back to the start for the lead, and one more pass.
  • " Star Raiders is set in outer space. " -> It's good to introduce the basic game concept (space combat simulator), and this sentence is short enough to make room for that. It might also be a chance to be a little more specific about the setting (e.g.: "set during a galactic war between the Atarian Federation and the Zylon Empire".
Tried re-phrasing this a bit. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The game..." is used a few times in a row, and a little less repetition would help.
Tried cutting this down a bit. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • " displays the horizontal and vertical coordinates of attacking Zylon ships and other targets" -> "displays the coordinates of enemy ships and other targets"
Changed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • " During battle, the player can destroy enemy ships using a photon torpedo; they must also avoid or destroy asteroids, which can cause damage or destroy their starship" -> "In action sequences, the player will sometimes avoid or destroy asteroids before they damage their starship, while battling enemy ships using photon torpedos."
Done. Slight respelling on torpedoes :) Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the bottom of the screen shows a control-panel display showing velocity (V), the number of enemies that have been destroyed (K), the ship's remaining energy (E) and the amount of targets in the area (T)" -> "The control panel displays the player's velocity, energy, and both the number of kills and remaining targets."
Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Firing photon torpedoes, using shields, and traversing space deplete energy. To restore energy or damaged ship parts, the player must orbit a friendly starbase and match its coordinates with the Attack Computer Display." -> "Energy is consumed by traversing space, using shields, and firing photon torpedos, while energy can be restored by matching coordinates with a friendly starbase."
  • " allowing the player a top-down view of their ship and flashing squares indicate targets' locations. " -> "giving the player a top-down view of their ship and surrounding targets."
Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • " which shows a grid map displayed that indicates friendly starbases, enemy ships and the player's location." -> "indicating the player's location, enemy ships, and friendly starbases."
Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Players can navigate to different areas on the map and hyper- warp there" -> this is a little vague. Hyper warping is different from regular navigation?
Tried to clarify this. Basically you can move around in space in each square on the map, but to move from square to square, you have to hyperwarp. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The status of the equipment is displayed in the galactic chart at the PESCLR text (for photons torpedoes, engines, sheilds, computer, long-range scan and sub-space radio). These elements can be damaged or destroyed and will effect gameplay; the destruction of engines will cause slower travel." -> "Six different types of equipment can be damaged in action, which is tracked using the acronym PESCLR (for photon torpedos, engines, computer, long-range scan, and radio). Damaged equipment will effect gameplay, such as slower movement due to damaged engines."
Slightly formatted, but changed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A subspace radio delivers messages through the galactic chart such as whether star bases are surrounded or destroyed." -> this might fit better right after you talk about the star chart.
I believe i've moved it to the correct spot now.
  • "Zylon ships move slightly more quickly and have fewer random intervals in their attack algorithm that governs the way they travel to attack star bases." -> "Zylon ships will move faster and strike more deliberately, with less randomness in their attack algorithm."
Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Let's start there. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:32, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your patience @Shooterwalker:, I've made the changes you requested. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Let's keep going with the development section.
  • "Star Raiders is Doug Neubauer's first-published video game; he has a background in electrical engineering rather than game design." -> "Previously working as an electrical engineer, Doug Neubauer created Star Raiders as his first published video game."
Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as programming experiments, Neubauer created" -> "Neubauer programmed" ("demo" implies these were prototypes or experiments)
Changed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "where its head of dedicated-game-console department Richard Simone hired him." -> "where console head Richard Simone hired him."
Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • " which is used " -> "used"
Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Neubauer used the 17-bit noise-and-random-number generator he developed for the chip to create sound effects for Star Raiders, such as the rocket engine and explosion sounds. He tried to recreate the sounds of photon torpedoes from the 1960s television series Star Trek." -> "Using the sound chip he created, Neubauer tried to emulate classic science fiction sounds such as explosions, engines, and photon torpedoes from the original Star Trek."
Slightly re-phrased, but changed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Neubauer began developing the game in early 1979. It was in development for about eight to ten months." -> "Development began in early 1979, with Neubauer finishing the game after eight to ten months."
  • "The text-based game Star Trek (1971) that was available on mainframe computers in the 1970s inspired Neubauer; he said he never played the game but heard other programmers describing it and felt "the game just didn't look that interesting to play, but it looked like a good idea for a galactic chart"." -> "Neubauer was inspired to make the game after hearing about the text-based game Star Trek (1971), feeling that it "just didn't look that interesting to play, but it looked like a good idea"."
Ehh, i've tweaked this a bit. I think it's important to note he didn't play it, and he mostly borrowed the galactic chart bit, as that's the key point. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Neubauer also said he did not know how" -> stating "Neubauer said" repeatedly becomes redundant, and you can just run with the history without saying that directly. (e.g.: "Neubauer did not know"
  • " which led to two enemies being on the screen at the same time" -> is this meant to be a limit? e.g.: "and could only make the screen display two enemies at once."
Yes. Thanks for clarifying. Changed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Neubauer developed the hyper warp to be more complicated, involve the player making calculations to make the jump as in Isaac Asimov's The Stars, Like Dust (1951). He later said; "it didn't take too long to realize that it was a dumb idea in terms of gameplay for an action videogame". " -> "Neubauer initially designed the hyper warp system to involve calculations inspired by Isaac Asimov's The Stars, Like Dust (1951), but decided to abandon it as "a dumb idea in terms of gameplay for an action game".
Much tighter. Changed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A feature that would allow the player to fly the ship into star bases for docking was abandoned because it was not possible due to a limited number of bytes in the ROM cartridge." -> "Due to the limited memory in the ROM cartridge, Neubauer also abandoned a feature that would allow players to dock at star bases."
Changed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There might be a better way to organize this. For example, you jump back and forth between talking about the cartridge and talking about the scoring system. See what you can do to improve the organization and flow. But but we can always come back to this on a second pass. Shooterwalker (talk) 16:08, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe while we'll tackle that in a bit with more specifics before I try to move things around. :) Thanks again for your work, I've applied most of your suggestions and tweaked a couple of them. Ready when you are @Shooterwalker: Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Release
  • "Neubauer was not directly involved in the creation of either the Atari 2600 or Atari ST versions of Star Raiders. The Atari 2600 version of the game was released in September 1982. The Atari 2600 release included an eight-button touch pad and a DC Comics book." -> try re-arranging and combining these into one statement. "The game was later released for the Atari 2600 without Neubauer's involvement, bundled with an eight-button touch pad and DC Comics book."
  • "The Atari 5200 version of the game was released in January 1983. This version of the game was the first game to make use of all 12 buttons on the system's gamepad. " -> "The game was re-released for the Atari 5200 in January 1983, and became the first game to use all 12 buttons on that console's gamepad."
  • Keep in mind that you don't need to document every single release. Sometimes it's better in the infobox, or not at all.
I feel like this goes against MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, which states that " the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below)." So we should source the release information within the paragraph. I've tried to re-arrange it into logical ports, namely the console releases.
  • With the rewrites, this might come down to a single paragraph.
I've re-written this section dropping some less prominent info. I feel like the compilation releases are important and I've only tackled a few major re-releases (i.e: Atari 2600 were released for PC in Atari 80 in One and Atari Anthology. While I believe the Atari 50 is the first re-release of the 5200 version (which is the closest to the popular original). In the wake of news like this, I feel like it is important to document that these games have been commercially re-released are playable on modern hardware. Andrzejbanas (talk) 23:52, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reception
  • In general, I think there's a lot of unnecessary details in your summary of the reviews. Several of the quotes don't really add anything informative for the reader. There are redundancies, like you don't need to say both that the game is unintuitive and' requires you to read the manual.
  • I would see if you can trim these reviews down from two sentences into one, focusing on the essential message from each review. (e.g.: loved the graphics, but criticized the gameplay.) We can take another look at it when the section is shorter.
  • Also try to re-organize the retrospective stuff. Reviews of the ports are somewhat different from retrospectives. But the other stuff such as the video game canon definitely belong in the legacy section.
Thanks for your work and patience. We'll keep getting through this. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:11, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! Checking back in to see if you can find time to tighten up the reception. The goal would be to give each source one well-written sentence, which would be doable if you cut some the quotes and other redundancies. Some of the history-facing material could be moved to the legacy section as well. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! sorry. I've just been editing sporadically. Been a bit busy outside holidays and I wanted to give this proper focus with a nice sitdown edit soon. :) is that alright? Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We can check back in the new year. If it truly stalls we can always just close it and come back. You're on the right track. Shooterwalker (talk) 21:40, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Shooterwalker: Sorry for the delay, I took a quick look at this section and edited it up a bit. Hope that helps. Andrzejbanas (talk) 07:29, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for staying committed to this, even as the work stretches out. Those changes have helped. We will likely still need another pass. But let's try to wrap up the first pass, including a look at the lead.
Legacy
  • " Matt Barton and Bill Loguidice of Gamasutra stated " -> this isn't necessary, since the next few sources reinforce this point. It's not just a statement from one commenter.
  • "Star Raiders prompted several clones following its release. These include Phaser Patrol and Starmaster for the Atari 2600, Space Spartans for Intellivision, and Sentinel and Codename MAT for the Commodore 64 and ZX Spectrum, respectively." -> "Star Raiders prompted several clones following its release, including Phaser Patrol, Starmaster, Space Spartans, Sentinel, and Codename MAT." (We don't need to go into detail about the platforms, since readers can look at that for further reading.)
  • An obscure addition that would fit after mentioning Wing Commander and Elite, Star Raiders also inspired Star Control, as another early space game.[1]
Good call. Added. Andrzejbanas (talk) 10:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Neubauer made no profit from the game because Atari did not grant royalties to its developers. Neubauer left the company but later did contract work for it." -> this statement feels off topic, and might fit somewhere else (Perhaps if you separated out some of the other Neubauer comments into their own paragraph)
  • "Neubauer said Solaris was not a sequel, and that he was fonder of Star Raiders, which he said has better gameplay, that he preferred that game's explosion graphics and cockpit view" -> "Neubauer explained that Solaris was not a sequel, and that he preferred Star Raiders for its gameplay, cockpit view, and explosion graphics."
Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 10:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was announced in 2010 and was" -> can cut this -- another minor detail that can be investigated at the target article
  • It feels odd to focus on only a single review for the later game. Could you try to summarize what multiple reviews said, so it feels less like a single opinion?
  • I basically didn't want to go too into detail with this for reasons you brought up above (users can look at the games corresponding article). I basically just included the Carolyn Petit comment because she immediately compared the two games, which might be more relevant to people reading this article. Andrzejbanas (talk) 10:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know anything about how this completely different team ended up working on this legacy game?
The 2011 one? I found some information on it, but it just seems to be part of Atari's long line of remaking their old games in the 2010s. None of which seemed particularly popular, but I didn't really find a lot of value. What kind of information do you think could be added? Andrzejbanas (talk) 10:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
  • " that was written" -> "created"
  • "for the Atari 400/800 computers." -> let's move this to the final sentence in the paragraph about platforms (e.g.: "Originally released the Atari 400/800 computers, Star Raiders was later ported to the Atari 2600, Atari 5200, and Atari ST."
  • "The player assumes the role of a starship pilot who is fighting Zylon forces while managing their ship's energy and systems and protecting friendly starbases." -> "The player assumes the role of a starship fighter pilot, protecting starbases from invading forces called Zylons."
  • "Starflight" -> "Piloting"
& Agree, Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 10:03, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "view with" -> "view, while"
  • "The television series Battlestar Galactica, the film Star Wars (1977), and the 1971 mainframe game Star Trek influenced Neubauer, who began developing Star Raiders in his non-working time at Atari." -> "Neubauer made the game during in his spare time at Atari, inspired by contemporary media such as Battlestar Galactica and Star Wars, as well as the 1971 mainframe game Star Trek."
  • "Matt Barton and Bill Loguidice of Gamasutra called Star Raiders one of the best-known games for Atari's 400 and 800 computers." -> "Star Raiders became one of the most successful games on Atari's 400 and 800 computers." (a better summary of multiple sources, without singling out one opinion)
  • "a sequel named Star Raiders II, and a 2011 remake." -> "as well as an official sequel and a 2011 remake". (you can use blue links instead of the names)
  • " Star Raiders was included in a list of ten games that were submitted as a game canon to the Library of Congress in 2007." -> "The Library of Congress selected Star Raiders as one of the first ten games in their video game canon, due to its historic significance."
We'll definitely have to come back around for a second pass, but the article is already in much better shape. Shooterwalker (talk) 05:27, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cool. Was able to tackle this much quicker. Thanks for your patience with me honestly! Back to you @Shooterwalker: Andrzejbanas (talk) 10:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let's try to give it one more pass, for any lingering issues.
  • Lead
  • Minor spacing issue after "Atari Inc." (IMO you could just say Atari)
  • " protecting starbases" -> "who must protect starbases"
  • " map showing the status of the Zylon invasion" -> "map shows the state of the Zylon invasion."
  • " well as an " -> "as well as spawning an"
  • "Star Raiders was included in a list of ten games that were submitted as a game canon to the Library of Congress in 2007." -> "Star Raiders was among the first ten games determined as game canon by the Library of Congress."
Again, it's not determined by the library congress per the citation, it's by the people discussed in the article, so I don't think we should phrase it this way. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:21, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Plot and gameplay
  • capitalization on "Space combat simulator"
  • " The player assumes the role of the captain of Elite Atarian Starship fleet and combat the Zylons before they eliminate humanity" -> "The player assumes the role of the captain of Elite Atarian Starship fleet, fighting the Zylons before they eliminate humanity
  • Add a paragraph break before the sentence, "Star Raiders is controlled using both a keyboard and a joystick."
  • "A long-range scanner changes the game's display, allowing the player a top-down view of their ship and flashing squares indicate targets' locations. " -> This sentence is a little confusing because of the passive voice. Why don't we just say "The player can activate a long-range scanner, which displays a top-down view of their ship and nearby targets."
Development
  • "Previously working as an electrical engineer, Doug Neubauer created Star Raiders" -> "Doug Neubauer began his career as an electrical engineer before creating Star Raiders"
  • "National canceled its home-computer projects and many employees, including Neubauer, moved to Atari, where LSI design manager Richard Simone hired him. " -> "National canceled its home computer projects, leading Neubauer to move to Atari, where design manager Richard Simone hired him."
  • What does LSI refer to? If it's important it needs to be explained, but otherwise it seems we could drop it.
  • " the sound effects such as explosions, engines, and photon torpedoes from the original Star Trek. " -> "the sound effects from Star Trek, such as explosions, engines, and photon torpedoes."
  • "During a period of downtime of his hardware design duties, Neubauer worked under the supervision of Jay Miner who allowed Neubauer to create software which led to early development of Star Raiders. " -> "During a period where Atari had fewer hardware design needs, supervisor Jay Minor allowed Neubauer to work on software that eventually developed into Star Raiders."
  • " He stated" -> "Neubauer stated"
  • " as influences" -> "as an influence"
  • " algorithms for 3D motion, which nobody did, " -> "algortihsm for 3D motion, with no success.
  • " leading to him "wasting a few weeks" trying to figure out" -> "This led him to spend weeks figuring out"
  • " Neubauer said creating a star field and explosions for the game was "pretty simple", " -> "Neubauer quickly developed a star field and explosions for the game." (the quote doesn't add anything)
  • " and described his code for it as " -> "Neubauer described his implementation as"
  • " When Neubauer finished the first draft of the game, he was 900 bytes over the eight kilobyte limit. " -> this is sort of a loose thread. What did he do about it? Is it important? Consider cutting it, as a minor detail in development.
Release
  • "Ports for consoles were released, such as the Atari 2600 version released in September 1982, and the Atari 5200 version released in January 1983. The Atari 2600 release included an eight-button touch pad while the Atari 5200 version was the first game for the system to use all 12 buttons on the system's gamepad." -> "A port was released for the Atari 2600 in 1982, featuring an eight-button touch pad. The following year, the game was ported to Atari 5200, becoming the first game to use all 12 buttons on the console's gamepad."
  • " various compilation formats" -> "various compilations"
Reception
  • I know this is before the days of metacritic, but it would be useful to have a sentence summarizing the general critical consensus, before jumping into a list of reviews.
I've tried adding something here. I am not a fan of saying things were "well received" when any user just bases it on sources they found. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "David C. Cole of InfoWorld said the game is "graphically rich" and noted its addictive qualities. Cole noted difficulty in the game, stating in more-difficult modes if the ship is damaged it is nearly impossible to locate a base for repairs." -> David C. Cole of InfoWorld said the game is "graphically rich" and noted its addictive qualities and challenge."
  • " In the January 1982 issue of Softline, a reviewer noted how different the game is to other contemporaneous Atari computer games, stating they were generally bigger or brighter versions of games made for the Atari 2600. The review concluded; "the game stands repeat play well and remains quite difficult"." -> "Softline also noted the game's replayability and challenge, while describing the game as bigger and better than its peers made for the Atari 2600."
  • slightly tweaked, I feel like we should say who the reviewer is if one is credited, and if not, just note the anonymity. I've noticed a trend in media articles who state if a journalist or write said something opposed to the magazine/newspaper itself, because it suggests the whole publication said it, which isn't necessarily the case. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and that in comparison to popular contemporaneous arcade games, is "the harder stuff", referring to the games complexity." -> this is worth just cutting.
  • "Greg Williams of Byte said in 1981;" "Greg Williams of Byte proclaimed"
  • "the results of a readers poll of the best programs for Atari computers ranked Star Raiders number one on the list with 45% more ballots than the second-place contender Jawbreaker (1981)." -> "readers voted for Star Raiders as the best program for Atari computers, with 45% more ballots than the second-place contender Jawbreaker (1981)."
  • "said the Atari 2600 version was unable to duplicate the quality of the home-computer releases but said the version "has done a very good job of transitions" and that the game had become "a classic space game"" -> called it a classic space game, while criticizing the Atari 2600 version's relative quality."
  • "Activisions" -> "Activision's"
  • "it an both an extremely complicated and sophisticated game and that it was" -> just cut this part and get right to the good part
  • "No fan of first-person space games should be without this one" -> cut this too (the first part already says it)
Legacy
  • " when in 1987 the magazine The Computer Entertainer polled its readers on their all time-favorite computer and video games. Star Raiders was placed 14th" -> "in 1987, readers of The Computer Entertainer voted for Star Raiders as the 14th favorite game of all time."
  • " Atari announced the game Star Raiders 2000 which was set to release for the Atari Jaguar in 1994. The game was retitled Space War 2000 and later had its release cancelled" -> "In 1994, Atari tried to promote a game called Star Raiders 2000 for the Atari Jaguar, but it was later retitled Space War 2000 before the project was cancelled."
  • "A new version of Star Raiders was developed by California-based Incinerator Studios. On the game's release in 2011," -> "Years later, Incenerator Studios developed a new version of Star Raiders, which was released in 2011."
That was a lot, but we're very close now. Thanks again for your work and your patience. Shooterwalker (talk) 05:14, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, thank you! I think you did the bigger bulk of difficult work here for copy-editing. I believe I've addressed everything @Shooterwalker:. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great work. This has passed the threshold to be considered a GA. Thanks for your dedication to making this a quality article. Shooterwalker (talk) 14:49, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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