Talk:Staatliche Museen zu Berlin

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On 7 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Berlin State Museums to Staatliche Museen zu Berlin. The result of the discussion was moved.

Title

Should this article not be titled Staatliche Museum? This is how it is named in most art books I've seen it mentioned in. Ceoil (talk) 14:03, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's a complicated subject, & of course much changed since re-unification. If I'm right (not certain): Staatliche Museen - plural meaning "State Museums" - redirects here, and "Staatliche Museum" does not exist in German, or refer to any one physical location. Staatliche Museen is a short name for the body that owns/runs a whole group of Berlin museums, & is often credited in books (especially in picture credits), but now things have settled down there, using an actual location like Gemäldegalerie, Berlin for the main Old Master paintings is preferable if the information is known for sure. Johnbod (talk) 14:17, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I now think we should rename to Staatliche Museen zu Berlin, which as you imply is more familiar even in English. Johnbod (talk) 02:13, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Berlin State Museums" is a misnomer, or at least misleading. There is a State of Berlin, and the museums do NOT belong to it. The Staatliche Museen zu Berlin are a branch of the Prussian Cultural Heritage Foundation, which is funded in part by the Federal Republic of Germany, and in part by all the German states. The foundation is controlled by a board of trustees who likewise represent the federal government and all the states. "Staatliche Museen zu Berlin" should therefore be translated (and is translated, on some web page of the Prussian Cultural Heritage Foundation, for what that's worth) as "National Museums in Berlin", or something like that. —Wegesrand (talk) 17:04, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"State" compares closely in both English and German in its various meanings. State can mean a sub-national division, i.e. State of Washington or State of Berlin. It can also mean a sovereign state, as in "Secretary of State", which is its meaning here. I don't think the name as translated is misleading nor a misnomer. A similar example can be found in the Berlin State Library (Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin), the old central library of Germany (not the State of Berlin), contrasted with the newer German National Library, (Deutsche Nationalbibliothek). Both are national libraries. Another example is the Berlin State Opera, which is the national company. Trying to translate too much just creates more confusion.-- Ultracobalt (talk) 22:36, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. "National Museums in Berlin" is a totally new invention in English, and I don't think I've seen "Berlin State Museums" outside Wikipedia, whereas the German name is fairly well-known (I don't say well-understood) if only because of the picture credits. Johnbod (talk) 23:33, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, the official English-language website uses both Staatlich Museen zu Berlin and National Museums in Berlin – the former more than the latter. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 16:56, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would argue the former (German) is better known in English, because that is what picture credits always use in art books, and picture captions very often, even when the name of the individual museum would be more appropriate. This is after all just an adminstrative body. Johnbod (talk) 17:01, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What research I've done so far seems to support that – [1], [2], [3], and many others – and I agree that the German name is the common name even in English-language sources. (I have notified WikiProjects Germany and Museums.) -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 17:08, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Which is OK as Staatliche Museen zu Berlin redirects here. The sources above are from bibliographic footnotes vs. direct use in the English literature where the name is common i.e. [4] [5] [6] and how it's listed in guides such as [7]. I suppose Berlin State Museums could just be a redirect, but that seems more confusing as then an inline translation in English would be needed in the article text itself, and the article name would not be consistent with other Berlin State organizations, unless we go on a renaming effort for those too. -- Ultracobalt (talk) 21:07, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We should WP:USEENGLISH unless the foreign equivalent is widely known, which in this case I suspect it is not. We should also use English based on reliable English sources. For example, books in English that use "Berlin State Museums" or "Berlin state museums" include: Art Treasures of the Berlin State Museums, Berlin State Museums and Frommer's Germany Day by Day to name just three. I'd stick with the English; it's a commonly used and good translation and, most importantly, will be clearly understood by most Wikipedia readers. --Bermicourt (talk) 08:20, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See above for what is common. Your second ref is to a rip-off book compiled from Wikipedia! Strange that both editors here active in this area think that the German is more common. Johnbod (talk) 08:54, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think Bermicourt is actually agreeing with you, Johnbod -- Ultracobalt (talk) 13:59, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bermicourt seems to be in favour of keeping the English name. Johnbod seems to be in favour of using a German name. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:05, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Question. Is any user going to formally nominate this article for renaming? Cos if not, I'm going to re-nominate Category:Objects of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin and Category:Papyri of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin to the "Berlin State Museums" name format. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 03:07, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe we have a consensus from above to formally nominate. There are actually 3 suggestions above, perhaps a vote is best to clarify since the discussion is lengthy. I'll start one below-- Ultracobalt (talk) 16:26, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Article Name Vote

Here is a more clearly stated question from the 3 proposals in the discussion above:
Shall the English Wikipedia title for the topic covered by this article be named:

A. Berlin State Museums

B. Staatliche Museen zu Berlin

C. National Museums in Berlin

Please vote in bold with short explanation. I'll go first to get formatting started:

Support A. Strongly oppose C. Per WP:USEENGLISH, per consistency with other existing articles of the same type, and per common usage in literature such as [8] [9] [10] and guides such as [11]. I'm neutral on B so should remain but as a redirect. C is not cited in any literature and should not exist in Wikipedia.--Ultracobalt (talk) 04:40, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support B. Strongly oppose C. per WP:COMMONNAME, see the discussion above, which I won't repeat for now. Clearly between A & B, as C is hardly ever seen & not used by the organization itself, unlike A&B, which both appear on its English pages. Johnbod (talk) 18:51, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Really, guys—if you want to canvass broader opinions, you really will have to start a formal rename request using WP:RM. You don't need to pre-form a consensus before proposing a move. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 23:13, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly oppose A, because it mentions that the museums are institutions of the Land (city state) of Berlin, but Berlin is still the location! If You ever like to translate Staatliche Museen zu Berlin it would be ....Museums at Berlin

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Title, once more

Sorry to raise this issue once more, folks, but "Berlin State Museums" is just so grossly wrong that this title is really unacceptable, no matter what any previous "votes" resulted in.

The State of Berlin is NOT the proprietor of these museums, so it's just plain wrong to use "state" here.

I am fully aware that there are instances where you can translate "Staat" as "state", but this is not one of them.

Also, the redirect Staatliche Museen which links directly to this article is somewhat silly. "Staatliche Museen" is totally ambiguous and might just as well mean the Staatliche Museen Kassel, or the national museums of Namibia, or any other national museums. --217.239.12.214 (talk) 22:36, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to set up a disam page for "Staatliche Museen" over the redirect, which would be useful. You don't say what name you propose here - I've given my position above. Note that a proper WP:RM request has never been launched. Actually I note that, whether inspired/mislead by WP or not, there is a fair amount of usage of "Berlin State Museums" on the internet. Johnbod (talk) 08:26, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Vorderasiatisches Museum

Isn't the Vorderasiatisches Museum one of the Berlin State Museums? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 15:51, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 7 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – Material Works ping me! 00:16, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Berlin State Museums → Staatliche Museen zu Berlin – This is the most prevalent name for the organisation in English-language sources, as shown by the ngram here. Ham II (talk) 19:14, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per my position in previous discussions above (which people should look at). Johnbod (talk) 23:21, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.