Talk:St Helens R.F.C.–Wigan Warriors rivalry
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Article Name
[edit]This article should really be called the "Good Friday Derby" as per Wikipedia:Article titles the new title is the common name, a more concise title which doesn't compromise on recongnisability or neutrality, and is more consistent with other named derbies such as the Queensland derby, Western Sydney Derby, or Heavy Woollen Derby. Mn1548 (talk) 09:35, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- The rivalry is distinct to the one game that takes place on a specific date. All other Derby's are generally associated with a region, whereas here you are trying to associate an entire rivalry to a single date in the calendar... but they meet on multiple other occasions per year usually.
- The Good Friday Derby should be a distinct article discussing its origins etc or subsection in the Wigan Saints rivalry page. Koncorde (talk) 09:42, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- The media and supporters of both clubs often refer to the fixture as the "Good Friday Derby" so I have no objections to a page move, however, since not all of the games are actually played on Good Friday, I take Koncorde's comments on board too. c87d98b10 09:57, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is particularly relevant bearing in mind that prior to the league moving to a summer competition this historic "derby" fixture was called the Boxing Day Derby (and there have been discussions over reviving it) for over a century. So anyone looking up a historic book or text is likely to be quite confused. In general parlance, we don't (as a Saints fan) refer to any Saints-Wigan match outside of Good Friday (or Bank Holiday) games as just being the Good Friday Derby as you would a regional derby. Koncorde (talk) 10:28, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Good Friday Derby is the name of the fixture, and the fact it's commonly played on Good Friday influenced it's name, but saying the two equate would mean that it could only be called a Good Friday Derby when played on Good Friday. The name is determined by the side that play the match not the day it's played on. During Super League XXIV the Hull Derby was played on Good Friday, it doesn't mean it's the Good Friday Derby. Similarly the 2020 Super League Grand Final was a Good Friday Derby because it was contest by Wigan and Saints. The media and a lot of people refer to it as such because that's it's name and derbies with specific name should have that as there article name. The 2011 FA Community Shield doesn't stop becoming a Manchester derby because it was contested in London, so the idea that every match between two rival sides has to be on a certain day or at a certain location for the name to be valid is just rediculas. Mn1548 (talk) 11:02, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Good Friday Derby is the name of the fixture when it is held on Good Friday (or if it is delayed, such as this year) just as the traditional Boxing Day game was called the Boxing Day Derby. Nobody refers to a match between Saints-Wigan held at any other time of the year in another competition as the Good Friday Derby. Say for instance The Grand Final in November.
- If Hull play each other on Good Friday ever single year they could call it the Good Friday Derby if they liked. Saints-Wigan do not own the name. Per discussion of moving the "rivalry" fixtures this year they even note the significance of the name is that it is a "traditional" easter fixture. Koncorde (talk) 13:51, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Just to emphasise this, see this list of fixtures. You will see from 1907 approx Saints vs Wigan was a Boxing Day game first and foremost. Later in the century the second fixture began to be held on Good Friday. Since 96 and the switch to the summer league a few fixtures were held in the off season for Boxing Day, and there have recurring discussions about bring it back. However the absence of the Boxing Day Derby does not mean the entire rivalry and its history is now named for and after the Good Friday game. Koncorde (talk) 14:02, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- To again cover above:
- Wigan Warriors refer to the Good Friday Derby as the singular fixture.[1]
- Similarly so do Saints [2]
- As does local media.[3]
- Hull do call their Good Friday fixture the "Good Friday Derby"[4]
- In contrast you will see no mention of Good Friday when fixtures are held on other occasions (which remain Derby's, which they do mention)[5][6][7] Koncorde (talk) 18:34, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
- To again cover above:
- Just to emphasise this, see this list of fixtures. You will see from 1907 approx Saints vs Wigan was a Boxing Day game first and foremost. Later in the century the second fixture began to be held on Good Friday. Since 96 and the switch to the summer league a few fixtures were held in the off season for Boxing Day, and there have recurring discussions about bring it back. However the absence of the Boxing Day Derby does not mean the entire rivalry and its history is now named for and after the Good Friday game. Koncorde (talk) 14:02, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Good Friday Derby is the name of the fixture, and the fact it's commonly played on Good Friday influenced it's name, but saying the two equate would mean that it could only be called a Good Friday Derby when played on Good Friday. The name is determined by the side that play the match not the day it's played on. During Super League XXIV the Hull Derby was played on Good Friday, it doesn't mean it's the Good Friday Derby. Similarly the 2020 Super League Grand Final was a Good Friday Derby because it was contest by Wigan and Saints. The media and a lot of people refer to it as such because that's it's name and derbies with specific name should have that as there article name. The 2011 FA Community Shield doesn't stop becoming a Manchester derby because it was contested in London, so the idea that every match between two rival sides has to be on a certain day or at a certain location for the name to be valid is just rediculas. Mn1548 (talk) 11:02, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is particularly relevant bearing in mind that prior to the league moving to a summer competition this historic "derby" fixture was called the Boxing Day Derby (and there have been discussions over reviving it) for over a century. So anyone looking up a historic book or text is likely to be quite confused. In general parlance, we don't (as a Saints fan) refer to any Saints-Wigan match outside of Good Friday (or Bank Holiday) games as just being the Good Friday Derby as you would a regional derby. Koncorde (talk) 10:28, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- The media and supporters of both clubs often refer to the fixture as the "Good Friday Derby" so I have no objections to a page move, however, since not all of the games are actually played on Good Friday, I take Koncorde's comments on board too. c87d98b10 09:57, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
I'd just like to chip in and say that "The Good Friday Derby" is stated in the other names section of the infobox, so it is covered. Maybe it could be mentioned in the main article that when the fixture is played on Good Friday, it is referred to as the "Good Friday Derby" to make it more clear that it's referred to as such only on this date? c87d98b10 21:22, 6 June 2021 (UTC) Nevermind, just noticed that it is. Move along, nowt to see here lol c87d98b10 21:25, 6 June 2021 (UTC)