Talk:St. Thomas Aquinas Purdue

University Parish, NOT Newman Center

In Catholic Campus ministry in the United States, there are three kinds of designations: (1) Newman Center - This is an organization normally under the auspices of a Diocese that may have a priest and other staff permanently assigned to it, but it does not have a stable worshiping community. Normally only mass and confessions are offered. (2) Parish based campus ministry - This is usually an on-campus Catholic organization affiliated with a nearby parish. Normally only mass and confessions are offered. (3) University Parish - This is a canonically established parish whose mission is to minister to the needs of a University (students, faculty, & staff). It has a stable worshiping community and celebrates all of the sacraments.

St. Thomas Aquinas is a University parish. Some have argued that since the church is listed on the newmanconnection.com website, it should be called a Newman Center. However, this website lists lots of Catholic Campus Ministries that are not Newman Centers. In addition, this is a third-party organization that has no canonical status with the Catholic Church, and as such it cannot be cited as a credible source for such designations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.149.95.201 (talk • contribs) 22:03, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• A lot of sources refer to St. Tom's as a Newman Center. I'm not sure what sources you could provide to show it is not a Newman Center. Could you provide some counter examples to the sources currently in the article, beyond your own understanding of the definition? --Cerebral726 (talk) 12:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
• These distinctions are explained in the United States Catholic Bishops' document, Empowered by the Spirit. Furthermore, I am currently employed as the Director of Evangelization at St. Tom's. I have personally spoken with Bishop Timothy Doherty, the current Bishop of the Diocese of Lafayette-in-Indiana about this question and he has stated that St. Tom's is a University parish. There are actually canonically established Newman Centers in this same Diocese, for example, St. Francis of Assisi at Ball State. If you look at their website, you will see that the ministry they provide meets all the criteria which are stated above.-Frbsttoms (talk) 03:46, 24 Octobber 2021 (UTC)

Be aware there are two problems here. Firstly you state "I am currently employed as the Director of Evangelization at St. Tom's", which means that you are a paid employee and thus have a direct conflict of interest, which means that you should not be editing the article. Secondly you state "I have personally spoken with Bishop Timothy Doherty...", which would be original research (WP:OR) and therefore not permissible in the article. What is needed is reliable (WP:RS) and verifiable (WP:V) sources that show either way that the it is not a Newman Center. I would suggest that the burden of proof (WP:BURDEN) would be on the inclusion of the claim so there should be a reference alongside the claim that shows beyond any doubt that the church is a Newman center. There are currently three references. Are you saying that all of these are incorrect? --10mmsocket (talk) 07:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Hello. Yes, I am saying that all three are incorrect. The sources cited are people referring to the St. Tom's church as a Newman Center. Just because someone uses the term in a colloquial sense does not mean they understand its technical sense. Newman Connection, for example, is a not-for-profit organization that has no official recognition within the Catholic Church in the United States. Their website simply exists to list Catholic campus ministries of every variety (Newman centers, parish based campus ministries, and university parishes). Here is an example to illustrate my point. The Catholic Campus Ministry at Embry-Riddle in Daytona Beach is an example of Parish Based Campus Ministry. It is attached to a local parish and is not a Newman Center. Yet, if we are to apply the standard of evidence used by Cerebral726, it would necessitate calling this a Newman Center. As I mentioned in my above comment, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops is the competent authority to make such designations, and it does so in their pastoral letter Empowered by the Spirit. At the very least, my request is for these three sources to be removed and a "source needed" tag to be added to the claim in its place. I can work with an editor to find a source to dispute the claim that falls within Wikipedia's rules.Frbsttoms (talk) 13:07, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

You'll note that I added two additional sources as well. One from Boiler Catholics and one from the Archdiocese of Indianapolis, both clearly associated with St. Tom's. They may have made errors, but they should be included until a better source showing they are both incorrect is added. I did remove the one you mentioned as it is not as strong a source so detracts from how strong the second two are. --Cerebral726 (talk) 13:16, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Actually, that is incorrect. As the article itself notes, this parish is in the Diocese of Lafayette-in-Indiana, not the Archdiocese of Indianapolis. Regarding the Boiler Catholics source, I will work to get this website updated to include the proper designation, as this is an error. As I mentioned, my request is that we temporarily add a "source needed" tag to this while a credible source is located. Frbsttoms (talk) 13:36, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

It's kind of a big leap to say that the Archdiocese of Indianapolis is not associated with the Diocese of Lafayette and by extension St. Tom's, especially with it listing St. Tom's as a resource for it's parishioners. If the Boiler Catholics source is updated to remove that, that will support your claim. --Cerebral726 (talk) 13:42, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

With respect, it is not a big leap. The Archdiocese of Indianapolis has no jurisdiction over St. Tom's because it does not reside in it's territory. While the Archdiocese may list this parish as a resource for incoming college students, it is not the competent authority over the church's designation as a university parish. The Diocesan Bishop of the diocese in which the parish resides is. Hence, The Criterion article isn't a credible source either. The parish's website has been updated to reflect the above changes. My suggestion is the remove all references and citations of St. Tom's being a Newman Center. Instead simply list it as a University Parish and include a citation for this page. 75.149.95.201 (talk) 14:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Updated per discussion and source changes. --Cerebral726 (talk) 15:11, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

References

Proposed additions

Proposed section on Ministries

I would like to propose the following section on parish ministries. Since there are large numbers of Catholics at Purdue, this section would help provide readers with an understanding of the scope of the parish's work.

Liturgy

St. Thomas Aquinas is known for its frequent liturgical offerings, with five weekend masses, two weekday masses, and the Sacrament of Reconciliation several times per week while Purdue is in session. In addition to attracting Purdue University students, faculty, and staff, people from across Lafayette and surrounding regions frequently attend due to the regular liturgical offerings.

Student Parishioner Ministries

The parish is the home of Boiler Catholics, the Purdue registered student organization for Purdue University's Catholic students. Boiler Catholics offers over 35 student-led ministries to help student parishioners grow in areas of prayer, service, faith formation, and community. Boiler Catholics offers regular retreats, weekly meals for students, foreign and domestic mission trips, and vocational discernment opportunities.

Resident Parishioner Ministries

The parish's resident parishioners offer families the unique chance to worship in the University setting. Each year, St. Tom's staff selects and invites a cohort of senior-year students to participate in the year-long intensive program called ESTEEM, which meets every two weeks and includes a series of lectures and discussions on matters of faith and leadership. All students are assigned a resident parishioner mentor to discuss issues of faith and learn from their example of Catholic leadership as professionals and active parishioners.

Resident parishioners also sustain and promote an active ministry to the people of St. Francis Xavier parish in Baudin, Haiti, including missions focused on providing medical, service, and infrastructure improvements.

Addition to Notable People section

Dr. Carolyn Woo, former President of Catholic Relief Services from 2012-2016, was a parishioner. She attributes her growth in faith to her time at St. Thomas Aquinas.

• Since Carolyn Woo does not have her own Wikipedia article, it doesn't seem notable that she was a parishioner. --Cerebral726 (talk) 19:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
• In regards to the rest of the content, it is all cited to primary sources. Also, the tone is largely advertising language or laudatory, so will need some work for inclusion. --Cerebral726 (talk) 19:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

References

There's a lot of peacock words in there and a non-neutral point of view. We cannot write "offer families the unique chance to worship" - unique in what context, compared with what other churches/university combinations; or "is known for its frequent" - known by whom?; "people from across Lafayette and surrounding regions frequently attend" - where's the proof of where they come from, how many of them are there, and how frequently do they come? Sorry but its just flannel that has no place on Wikipedia. It's also exactly why paid editing isn't allowed. --10mmsocket (talk) 20:56, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Got it. I see what you mean. I appreciate your patience as I'm trying to learn the ins and outs of this (I hope you can see that I'm trying to do this in good faith). Are there any good pages that I could read on how to craft content that is acceptable for wikipedia? Frbsttoms (talk) 01:40, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

What you're asking about is a featured article. The list of FAs can be found at Wikipedia:Featured articles. Take a look in the section Wikipedia:Featured articles#Religion, mysticism and mythology. 10mmsocket (talk) 06:58, 26 October 2021 (UTC)