Talk:St. Louis Park, Minnesota

The edit history of this article is not truthful. I've reported it to bugzilla. It's bug #2930. Michael Hardy 20:55, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

What should we add next?

Well, I basically brought it up to par times a million. It's way better then Edina's page at least.

--Elfangor801 21:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC) Elfangor801

We should add something about Beek's pizza.

Amococrash (talk) 01:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)Amococrash

World's first shopping center?

I removed some speculation on Minnesota's first shopping center being the first in the world. See Country Club Plaza, built in the 1920s, for an older shopping district. Catbar (Brian Rock) 21:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Greatest. City. Ever.

Please feel free to extol the virtues of St. Louis Park in this space.

Who put that :-p ^?

St. Jewish Park

I know this has been discussed before, or at least been fought over via editing, but I don't think the phrase "St. Jewish Park" should be in our city's Wiki. I don't know of anyone who lives in the city who refers to it this way. Indeed, the only times I have heard it used in actual conversation were as slurs shouted at our teams when I played sports for SLPHS.

Thoughts?

I'm probably the only real Jew posting here. Leave it. Why wouln't you leave it? No body is calling anyone, anything, it is just there to teach. Why are people trying to restrict this place, we have freedom of media and info, just leave the "St. Jewish Park" section in. Its not a big deal. There is a whole racial slur page, thats pretty bad. Saying St Jewish Park isen't even a racial slur, so leave it.

Well, it's in scare quotes, so Wikipedia is not calling it by that name, but reporting that others have done so. I've heard it used that way jocularly by people who live in St. Louis Park, although it's been a while. Michael Hardy 23:00, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm taking it that you live in SLP then. It should be there, everyone here uses it and the Jews don't care so I don't see why people come in and randomly delete it every few months because someone in Idaho decides it's anti-semetic. The Jews don't care, and it's a big part of city identity!

I do not now live in St. Louis Park, but I did in the past. Michael Hardy 02:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above poster. I live in St. Louis Park. It's part of our culture and the culture of the surrounding suburbs, it's stupid when people from 500 miles away come in and randomly delete it twice a month.

I suppose it is not actual phrase "St. Jewish Park" that bothers so much as the lack of context, and the unqualified statement that "Many Twin Cities residents believe that most inhabitants of St. Louis Park are Jewish." This seems anectodotal, and unverifiable. Why not instead discuss the reasons for SLP's rich Jewish tradtion (i.e. the migration from North Minneapolis into Park in the 1950s, the history of tolerance and religious harmony in the city etc. -- I would do add it myself but I don't know much more about it). Perhaps more context would make the term seem less jarring to those who've never lived in SLP? --C.e.worthington 18:42, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

"Many Twin Cities residents" may be somewhat exaggerated. My impression is that the further you get from St. Louis Park, the more people are influenced by the stereotype. I once met a man in Western Minnesota, probably more than 100 miles west of the Twin Cities, who expressed surprise that I had once lived in St. Louis Park and I am not Jewish. I would certainly not expect that reaction from someone who's lived in the Twin Cities area for a long time. Michael Hardy 16:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not just in the Cities that it's called SJP...the usage has long since spread far and wide throughout Wisconsin and Iowa (and probably California). I've heard lots of people use it, both from SLP and not, both Jewish and not, and it's always used jocularly, not as a slur. Just my 2¢ from the south side of the middle of the boonies... Tomer^talk 00:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

"The city has been comically called St. Jewish Park". That sounds really stupid, plus it's passive. I think all the stuff in here should be summed up in the article. Like how SLP people use it as a joke but farther away people use it as a stereotype or whatever. And there has to be some data on what percent actually is Jewish, it definitely doesn't seem like its 1/3 Catholic 1/3 Protestant 1/3 Jewish. I am pretty sure who ever wrote that just pulled that out of their ass. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.162.40.183 (talk) 01:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

I also expressed surprise when I noticed this article has no mention of its Jewish history. I mean not every suburb in the metro has its own Jewish high school and Hebrew offered as a major language at SLP. I have no concept of how to write this history for it so you natives ought to do it. As for St. Jewish Park I have never heard of that in 22 years here and I use to work in Hopkins. Unless it's been cited in a news story before I doubt you should use it. .:DavuMaya:. 12:25, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

It is certainly used, by residents and others, but I agree it should not be given without citation and context. This article is incomplete if it does not give some idea of the Jewish history in this city, which is much more than a stereotype or phrase. Jonathunder (talk) 17:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I grew up there, it was called St. Jewish Park, albeit rarely. *shrug*. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.226.163 (talk) 09:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Formatting

So, i noticed that the bullet points of the businesses in SLP are double spaced, but the hotel bullets and city government officals are single spaced. One format should be picked and caried throughout the article, so, for now i am going to change the businesses to single spaced, but please feel free to change it all back if thats the formatting you like. THankszoreos--Geppy 05:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Copying of the history section

I noticed that the History section of the article is copied almost verbatim from the St. Louis Park history page. Also, the picture of the grain elevator seems to be copied from the same source (and not from a U.S. government page, as the image tag asserts). I think we might need to clean this up. --Elkman - ^(talk) 21:44, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah so what's up with that infobox stuff??

The infobox is fine, why does someone want to delete it? The info is like six months old.

Not delete, just replace. There is an effort under way to merge all of the city infoboxes into standard template. The infobox used by this article has been merged into Infobox City. When the notices we're placed on the affected articles blank templates we're left commented out as well. It's just a matter of copying the information from the old template to the new one. Se the WP:CITY talk page for more info on the merge/conversion. --harpchad 12:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Template for a U.S. City

For those who plan on editing and expanding this article, please follow the Template for a U.S. City. Thanks!--Daveswagon 09:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

on original research claims

Deducing racial make up by counting churches on the city's website sounds a lot like original research. TableManners ^U·T·C 06:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Jewish flight from North Minneapolis, strawman "simple stereotype", original research

From article:

“ According to a simple stereotype, most inhabitants of St. Louis Park are Jewish. This is due to former discriminatory housing laws that prohibited Jews from purchasing homes in Minneapolis proper and in most suburbs. In fact, there may be about equal numbers of Jews, Protestants, and Catholics. The city has been comically called St. Jewish Park. The city's official web site contains a page listing 19 Christian churches and five Jewish synagogues. (The U.S. Census does not ask people their religious affiliation, so definitive data on residents' religions are difficult to obtain.) ”

Several problems:
1. The "simple stereotype" is not cited. It also appears to be the strawman justification for the subsequent original research.
2. It is not only due to discriminatory housing laws, though that played a part of a much more interesting story. In fact, many St. Louis Park Jews had homes in North Minneapolis before moving to St. Louis Park. North Minneapolis around Plymouth Ave. had a higher Jewish population density than St. Louis Park. There are two old large synagogues near Oak Park Avenue and Penn Avenue (one at Oak Park and Penn, the other 1 block away at Oak Park and Oliver) to this day. They are now churches, but they used to be synagogues. The Jews fled the area in the 40s-60s due to "projects" (low income housing in modern politically correct terms) being built on Plymoth avenue and racial unrest. This was a case of white/Jewish flight, as the incoming residents of the projects were largely African American. They (the Jews of N. Minneapolis) fled to St. Louis park in part because of discriminatory housing laws, and in part because people of the same enthic, racial, and ethnic groups often choose to live in the same neighborhood, and in part because they did not want to live near African American projects. This is all true--but better yet, it is verifiable by reliable sources (Star Tribune, books) but I don't have the time or inclination to go do the research. For example, see The Jewish Community of North Minneapolis by Rhonda Lewin where it says that out of 16,000 Jews in Minneapolis in 1936, 70% of them lived in N. Minneapolis. Also, a search of old Minneapolis Star/Minneapolis Tribune, now StartTribune should provide ample material. See also [1], [2], [3], [4]
3. Deducing the relative population density of Jews (religious and/or ethnic) by counting churches and synagogues listed on St. Louis Park's website is original research (and faulty research). It has no place on Wikipedia. I hope this helps somebody who has an interest in improving this article. TableManners ^U·T·C 13:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Where did anyone ever deduce the relative population density from the number of places of worship? That two things are both mentioned in the same paragraph does not mean that one is deduced from the other? Michael Hardy (talk) 20:19, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Typically, a paragraph (-->CLICK ME<--) starts with a main point which is followed by supporting details. The non-fiction paragraph usually begins with the general and moves towards the more specific so as to advance an argument or point of view. In this case, the point of view is to dismiss the possibly strawman argument that most residents of St. Louis Park are Jewish. If you remove the sentence "The city has been comically called St. Jewish Park," which is ill-placed, you might see the juxtaposition and position advancement more clearly. In this case, the sentence "The city's official web site contains a page listing 19 Christian churches and five Jewish synagogues" is original research in advancment of the position that it is an incorrect stereotype that St. Louis Park is full of Jewish people, and, in fact, there may be about equal numbers of Jews, Protestants, and Catholics.

I hope this makes things clear. If not, click on that wikilink that describes paragraphs. TableManners ^U·T·C 03:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

due to former discriminatory...

Thanks M.Hardy for the edit. I followed yours up with some others. The next biggest problem I see is from the article: "This is due to former discriminatory housing laws that prohibited Jews from purchasing homes in Minneapolis proper and in most suburbs."

Again, I think this is an overstatement. See for example p. 107 of The Jewish Community of North Minneapolis by Rhoda Lewin. It alludes to the African Americans moving in as Jews were moving out. It also alludes to racial tension (or tension coincidentally among persons of different race). I think other sources may make a more firm case (as I did in the previous section) that another part of the reason was "white (Jewish) flight", in addition to discriminatory practices, and possibly racial covenanents on properties. It's late. TableManners ^U·T·C 06:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I just removed the part about being prohibited from purchasing homes "in Minneapolis proper" and in most suburbs because the above source says they were coming *from* North Minneapolis. I probably should have left the "in most suburbs" but the whole sentence is dubious (overstatement, incorrect as previously stated, possibly still incorrect). Also, I am not sure it was even "laws", so I kept the ^{{cn}} (it may have just been discriminatory housing practices, e.g., redlining, etc. that kept Jewish people from certain areas of the city and suburbs) TableManners ^U·T·C 07:00, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The city's official web site contains a page listing 19 Christian churches and five Jewish synagogues

I am going to removemodify this sentence: "The city's official web site contains a page listing 19 Christian churches and five Jewish synagogues" because
1 The page is http://www.stlouispark.org/about/worship.htm, I assume.
2 The above page does not indicate that all of the places of worship or within St. Louis Park City Limits.
3 The above page does not indicate the affiliation of every place of worship (e.g., Calvary Worship Center, Shalom Scripture Studies, Twin City Fellowship) While much of this could be figured out with a little research, it would be original research. This would violate, I think, WP policy. TableManners ^U·T·C 05:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I changed the sentence to "The city's official web site contains a page listing 25 places of worship, including Christian churches and Jewish synagogues" and added a reference to the appropriate page. TableManners ^U·T·C 05:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The content of that page has changed since last I saw it. It no longer lists Sharei Chesed Congregation and it now lists some apparently very tiny groups that seem to meet in some small rooms in office buildings or the like. Michael Hardy (talk) 20:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

A more recent develpment: Sharei Chesed Congregation has moved to a location maybe two or three miles west of where it used to be, which is not in St. Louis Park, and its building is now a church. It still has cornerstones giving the date of construction in both Gregorian year (1965) and the year in the Jewish calendar (something over 5000). Michael Hardy (talk) 22:32, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Early developments

I had heard that much of SLP was built on the site of an old manufactured gas plant. Anyone know if this is true?--Weetoddid (talk) 07:57, 1 May 2009 (UTC) Silly. You have any idea how big the city is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.226.163 (talk) 09:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

According to this article, the city has an area of 10.9 square miles (28.3 km²). Jonathunder (talk) 14:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if you could be referring to the Republic Creosote plant, which closed in 1972. If so, very little is built on it—a couple of apartment complexes, I think. Look at this map. The area west of Louisiana Avenue, north of Highway 7, and south of Oak Park Village Drive is where the plant was located. The URL shows much, but not all, of St. Louis Park. Michael Hardy (talk) 21:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

....and just to be explicit: that is obviously only a very small part of St. Louis Park. Michael Hardy (talk) 17:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)