Talk:Soviet deportations from Estonia

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A fact from Soviet deportations from Estonia appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 21 June 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that during the Soviet deportations from Estonia in 1940-1941 and 1944-1951 the Soviet Union forcibly transferred tens of thousands of Estonian citizens to Siberia?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2007/June.

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Structure and references

I have restructured the article, and created articles for June deportation and March deportation. Unfortunately, the exact structure of these articles' interrelations is not clear for me at the moment; the {{see}} links should probably become into some more asymmetric pairs.

One approach that I can think of would be a regional distinction: the subarticles would concentrate on general aspects of the time-delimited deportations while this particular article would discuss general aspects of the geography-delimited deportations. Digwuren 17:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is it worth expanding to cover Latvia and Lithuania as well? After all, these Soviet operations affected them at the same time, it would be unreasonable to have three different articles for this. Colchicum 10:45, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, I know nothing about Estonia's copyright law, but if this is free, it would be good here.Colchicum 10:58, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling Errors?

I replaced the word entenced with sentenced in the legal status section. I just wanted to bring this to your attention in case entenced was correct.

Thank you. Indeed, 'sentenced' is the correct word. Digwuren 08:54, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Interwiki

No other article on this subject, even in Estonian Wikipedia?Xx236 08:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

et: is unfortunately half-dead. There is et:Küüditamine#Küüditamised Nõukogude okupatsiooni ajal, though. DLX 08:53, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Link for future: Economist: Name them and remember. -- Sander Säde 19:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Deportations were like a family picnic

English, Estonian. So lovely that friendly Soviets gave Estonians a chance to have a picnic in Siberia. -- Sander Säde 11:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Estonians declared as class enemies

Aadu Must has claimed to have found a Politburo directive from between 1937-1939 declaring Estonians along with some other nationalities as class enemies. If this is correct it would give additional and even more sinister meaning to the deportations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.196.42 (talk) 19:58, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Soviet deportations as crimes against humanity

Georgian Daily 30 March 2009: Soviet Deportation of Estonians in 1949 was a Crime Against Humanity, Memorial Concludes by Paul Goble:

“

Tallinn, March 30 – Memorial, one of Russia’s most widely respected human rights organizations, has concluded on the basis of a detailed examination of the evidence and of international law that the Soviet deportation of more than 20,000 people from Estonian 1949 was a crime against humanity, for which there is no statute of limitations.

”

Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 15:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Obituary as a source

There's a tradition throughout the civilised world to refrain from speaking about the vices, mistakes and crimes of the recently departed. Thus, when obituaries are used as sources, they need to be taken by a particular grain of salt, and critically assessed. Where reasonably possible, obituaries should not be used as sources for anything else that the person has died. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 16:01, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not an obituary. It's a news report. Are you claiming the BBC is not a reliable source? Whitewashing comes to mind here. If we can insert claims of Soviet war memorials being called "Tombs of the unknown rapist", then we can certainly include sourced, neutrally worded information from a reliable source. Wikipedia is not censored, and to whitewash this information which complies with every WP:POLICY is to engage in advocacy. --Russavia ^Dialogue 16:23, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't recommend you to mention the Tomb of the Unknown Rapist in an article on rape, for example. Relevance matters. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 16:30, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

True, but the information which was inserted IS on this subject, and is relevant, and fully sourced. However, I am more concerned about your unsourced addition of information into this article, which very likely is original research on your part. I would like to see a source that these deportations have been considered as genocide by the European Parliament. And I mean explicitly states, not an OR'ish synthesis of what an editor thinks it includes. --Russavia ^Dialogue 16:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What do Nazi war criminals have to do with the Soviet deportations? This is soapboxing. Colchicum (talk) 16:40, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Soapboxing by who? The BBC? Because they are the one's who made the link, not I. And everything is suitably attributed as required by policy. I'll quote an essay I read once: "There is no rule on Wikipedia that someone has to get permission from you before they put cited information in an article. Such a rule would clearly contradict WP:BOLD. There is guidance from ArbCom that removal of statements that are pertinent, sourced reliably, and written in a neutral style constitutes disruption.[1] Instead of removing cited work, you should be questioning uncited information." --Russavia ^Dialogue 16:46, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

By who?! Was it the BBC who put the link in the article Soviet deportations from Estonia? But I don't care. What is important is that, editorializing in obituaries aside, "Nazi war criminals" (there should be many after 65 years, 40 of them being under the Soviet rule, but it doesn't matter again) have nothing to do with the topic of this article. Moreover, there is a policy that discorages making repeated reverts when there are objections on the talk page. Colchicum (talk) 16:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nazi war criminals aren't included now. They indeed can be viewed separately. ellol (talk) 17:02, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Colchicum (talk) 17:04, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Obituary? It is a news report. Additionally, even if it were editorialising on the part of the BBC, this requires attribution, which was clearly done within the article, and which has been removed by Digwuren as being irrelevant. Yet, his unsourced info is not being challenged at all. Why's that? --Russavia ^Dialogue 17:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously because we are KAPO agents, didn't Bäckman tell the world? Colchicum (talk) 17:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not interested in KAPO or Backman, I couldn't think of anything less interesting for me than those 2 topics. But the question still stands I guess, why is sourced information being removed, whilst unsourced information is allowed to stay unchallenged? Hmmmm..... --Russavia ^Dialogue 17:17, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let's better ask Digwuren. Colchicum (talk) 17:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, he's been asked, will just wait for an answer from him, with some sources of course. --Russavia ^Dialogue 17:22, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, it's because of my rugged handsome looks. Oh, and it might have something to do with the fact that it has been in the real recent news and isn't irrelevant or controversial. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 17:29, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then please supply them in the article, and it needs to explicitly state what you have inserted. --Russavia ^Dialogue 18:05, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's the wonderful slogan of WP:SOFIXIT. You don't like the lack of sources? WP:SOFIXIT, they're easy to find. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 17:30, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I am mindful of WP:3RR, and I know that if I were to add ^{[citation needed]} or ^{[dubious – discuss]} to the article that I would be reported for 3RR in an instant. However, I will note your intriguing and absolutely revealing attitude in relation to WP:V. You know that you don't add information to WP without a source to verify it. To do so is to engage in original research and you know that's not on. Sources please. --Russavia ^Dialogue 18:05, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For instance I see nothing at [2] or the motion (3.5mb Word document) which includes your unsourced assertions. So just where did you get the information that this has been recognised as genocide or a crime against humanity? --Russavia ^Dialogue 18:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can't see how anybody could accuse you for reverting if you're only adding information (perhaps the same link you had) which has never been in the article before. However, I do understand your concern, it seems that you were considering different kind of approach for improving that article... Ptrt (talk) 20:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's just a little experiment I borrowed from an old Wikipedian. People who are here to write encyclopædia won't have trouble finding easily findable sources that are no trouble to find -- especially after asked to. People who are here to advocate a WP:POV will go out of their way to pretend that they can't see what they consider "the opposing sources". Termer is a classical example of a person with a very strong encyclopædic attitude. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 06:30, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And Digwuren is a very strong example of the opposite attitude as one can clearly see from his WP:BATTLE attitude, and his refusal to even source information in articles (as evidenced in this article). This ties in with this in which Digwuren has stated his intention to follow Colchicum's advice not to collaborate in any way. --Russavia ^Dialogue 06:31, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Crime against humanity

Can someone please provide here the exact wording of the European Parliament motion which declares this to be a crime against humanity? Because I am not seeing it, at all. --Russavia ^Dialogue 21:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Still no source for this information. When is it going to be provided? If not provided in 24 hours, I will remove it the WP:SYN from the article. --Russavia ^Dialogue 20:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Digwuren has already provided you a link to the text here Martintg (talk) 23:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, here. Your link refers to a duplicate. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 05:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, and it says nothing about Soviet deportations, hence it is WP:SYN to include it in this article. --Russavia ^Dialogue 23:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the section based upon "that" being the link for inclusion into the article. --Russavia ^Dialogue 23:19, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This link mentions it. I've re included the text. Martintg (talk) 23:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Something is screwy with my browser search as it's not finding it. I had to read thru the monotonous writings to find it. Good on them for doing that. --Russavia ^Dialogue 23:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Preambular clause G: whereas millions of victims were deported, imprisoned, tortured and murdered by totalitarian and authoritarian regimes during the 20th century in Europe; whereas the uniqueness of the Holocaust must nevertheless be acknowledged,. Bold mine, for your finding convenience. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 06:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, this is a draft version. Final versions carry a TA marker in their identifier. The final version of this resolution is at [3]. It must've taken a day to process and translate it; in fact, as of now, the Estonian, Greek and Finnish translations are still not yet available. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 06:18, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Vagunist väljunud küüditatud vahepeatuse ajal Uuralite taga 1949. aasta aprillis.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:55, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]