Talk:Soviet deportations from Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina

Should this article also talk about the 75,000 Romanians of German ethnicity that were deported in 1944–1945 to Siberia by the Red Army or do we need another article for that ? bogdan | ^Talk 00:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it should. It resulted in the first heavy depopulation of the southern Transylvania area and it changed heavily the ethnic composition of the main towns (Sibiu, Braşov, Mediaş). Also that moment is still strongly remembered by the peoples in that area. The article could be also made a Romanian-history-stub. Could it? -Orioane 17:48, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Source for romanians deportation

"Dupa ocuparea Basarabiei de catre Uniunea Sovietica la 28 iunie 1940, românii au fost supusi unui regim sistematic de crime, masacre, deportari si dislocarile masive. Stenograma Sesiunii Sovietului Suprem al URSS de pe 2 august 1940 dadea cifra de 3.200.000 de locuitori ai Basarabiei; aceleasi date oficiale pentru 1950 indicau 2.229.000 persoane - 971.000 persoane disparute in 10 ani, aproape 1/3 din populatie.

1. intre 28 iunie 1940 si 22 iunie 1941, 300.000 de romani deportati; numai in noaptea de 13 iunie 1941, au fost dislocate si trimise in Siberia 13.470 de familii, insumand 22.648 de persoane, dintre care aproximativ 2/3 femei si copii.

2. intre 1944 si 1948 , 250.000 de romani deportati

3. intre 1946 si 1947 , 300.000 de romani morti in urma fometei provocate de Stalin.

4. la 6 iulie 1949 incepe a 3-a deportare masiva; 11.324 familii deportate

5. intre 1954 si 1964, 300.000 de romani deportati in Rusia si Kazahstan"

(Victor Barsan "Masacrul inocentilor", Bucuresti, 1993, pg.18-19)

Now according to this book (Victor Barsan "Masacrul inocentilor", Bucuresti, 1993, pg.18-19) there have been deported much more romanians as this article presents so far. --Moldo 20:50, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

According to this book after Soviet occupation of Basarabia around 28 June 1940, romanians have been victims of a systematic regime of crimes, massacres, deportations and massive dislocation. The Stenogram of the session of Supreme Soviet of Soviet Union from 2 August 1940 offered the number of 3.200.000 inhabitans of Basarabia; the same official data for 1950 offered only 2.229.000 persons - 971.000 dissapeared in 10 years, almost 1/3 of population.

1. between 28 June 1940 and 22 June 1941, 300.000 of romanians deported; only in the night of 13 June 1941, have been dislocated and send to Siberia 13.470 families, summing 22.648 persons, from which aproximatively 2/3 women and children.

2. between 1944 and 1948 , 250.000 of romanians deported

3. between 1946 and 1947 , 300.000 de romanians dead following the famine made by Stalin.

4. at 6th July 1949 starts the 3-rd massive deportation; 11.324 families deported

5. between 1954 and 1964, 300.000 of romnians deported in Russia and Kazahstan"

(Victor Barsan "Innocent's Massacre", Bucharest, 1993, pg.18-19) --Moldo 14:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Totul a început la 6 aprilie 1949, când consiliul de miniştri ai URSS a adoptat o hotărâre de rău augur: „Cu privire la deportarea din RSS Moldovenească a familiilor de chiaburi, foşti moşieri, mari comercianţi”. Acel document prevedea ca la 6 iulie să fie deportate 11280 de familii, în total 40850 de oameni. Însă, cu toată străduinţa de care au dat dovadă zeloşii activişti de pe loc, nu ajungeau 5800 de oameni, care au fugit. În schimb, a fost depăşit planul la numărul de familii, fiind încărcate în mărfare 11293 de familii. De dragul planului, activiştii i-au inclus în listele lor şi pe bătrâni.

Valentina Sturza, preşedinta Asociaţiei foştilor deportaţi şi deţinuţi politici din Moldova, ne-a spus că deşi acei oameni au fost victime nevinovate ale regimului comunist, nici până astăzi nu au fost despăgubiţi pentru bunurile expropriate în mod abuziv, pentru calvarul pe care l-au îndurat. Prefăcându-se că-i pasă, din 1992 şi până în prezent, parlamentul R. Moldova a discutat de mai multe ori despre problema deportaţilor, dar deciziile luate au fost mai mult o bătaie de joc. De exemplu, în 1995, deputaţii au decis că, „în cazul în care averea persoanelor reabilitate nu s-a păstrat şi nu poate fi restituită, se va recupera valoarea ei, dar plafonul achitărilor nu poate depăşi suma de 200 de lei pentru fiecare familie. Din nefericire, partidul aflat la guvernare nici măcar nu îndrăzneşte să ceară cu fermitate Rusiei ca aceasta să-şi prezinte scuzele de rigoare pentru suferinţele cauzate basarabenilor.

În memoria persoanelor deportate, a victimelor regimului comunist, astăzi, 6 iulie, va fi organizat un miting lângă piatra funerară din scuarul gării feroviare din Chişinău. Această piatră a fost instalată în 1992, în semn de aducere aminte. Cei prezenţi vor asista la o slujbă de pomenire. În viitorul apropiat, foştii deportaţi intenţionează să picheteze parlamentul până când vor fi auziţi de guvernanţi.

Natalia Hadârcă, TIMPUL (preluare din TIMPUL, MIERCURI, 6 IULIE 2005, NR.245)

6 April 1949

Soviet Union had approved a law:"On the deportation from RSS Moldoveneasca of the families of rich people, former boyars, big commerciants". This law said that by 6 July to be deported 11280 of families, in total 40850 people. Source: Natalia Hadârcă, TIMPUL (preluare din TIMPUL, MIERCURI, 6 IULIE 2005, NR.245) --Moldo 15:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Move

I suggest to move the page were it was. The article does not refer to the ethnic group Romanians, but to the citizens of Romania as of 1940, when the territories were occupied. These territories include Bessarabia, but also Northern Bukovina, and Hertza region. A title containing all that would be very cumbersome. In addition, the article also referes to Romanian citizens deported from Romania proper in 1940s- early 1950s,a nd there were many of those, including many personalities that have WP articles. It is about citizens, not ethnic groups. Also, please observe, there is and there never was a "Bessarabia citizenship". Dc76\^talk 18:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

But this page doesn't talks about Romanian citizens, but Soviet ones.Xasha (talk) 18:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

No, it talks about Romanian citizens that were occupied. If the Soviets would have taken only Bessarabia, and wouldn't split it between MSSR and UkrSSR, we could have had a simpler title, but as it is, this is the only one that can cover both those that remained in Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina, and those that fled, and were captured in Romania proper. It is a single story about the same people: some where deported from here, some where taken from there after they fled from here. Splitting would be to create content fork. Dc76\^talk 18:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

At the time of deportation, all of the deportees were citizens of the MSSR or UkSSR, thus Soviet citizens. No info is provided for those "captured" in Romania. They are a different problem. Romanian citizens had to be ceded to the Soviets by the Romanian government. Those in the Soviet Union were at the mercy of the Soviet Authorities. The article about the deportation of Romanian citizens outside Soviet territory should cover the responsibility of the Romanian government.Xasha (talk) 18:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

That USSR considered them also Soviet citizens does not mean they lost Romanian citizenship, as Romania did not legally withdraw it from them. And we also would cover people arrested in Romania directly by the Soviets, which did not pass through the hands of Romanian Communist government. The arrested people were connected to Bessarabia and Bukovina - this is why they were arrested. You can have a point if you would suggest to replace Romanians with Bessarabians, Northern-Bukovinians and Hertza-regionians, but I do not see you proposing that. And this has nothing to do with ethnicity, there were plenty of Ukrainians, Russians and Jews among the deportees, actually it appears even larger numbers than their share in the population. Dc76\^talk 19:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I doubt that. A Moldovan born before 1940, and who remained in MSSR, can't just go to a Romanian police station and request a Romanian passport, as a Romanian citizen can do, AFAIK. Exactly, the legality of such an action should be discussed in a specific article, not this one. People from Bukovina can be mentioned in an article about Western Ukraine.Xasha (talk) 19:38, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, I am not talking about today, but about Stalin's period: 1940-1941 mainly, and also 1944-1953. My point is they remained Romanian citizens in 1940-1941, because they were no asked to reappply in 1941. Note that in 1948, Romania and USSR signed a treaty, which can be interpreted as a legal basis for citizenship issues. At any rate, everything before 1948, should get in, including Bukovina, as it was not part of Ukraine in 1941-1944, and until the treaty between communist Romania and USSR in 1948 it could have been claimed back (as for example Northern Transylvania was). At any rate, I made my point, you made yours. Let's see what the others have to say. Dc76\^talk 19:43, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Yug(1949) and Sever(1951) happened after the Romanian-Soviet Treaty. Also the 1947 Paris Treaty gave international acknowledgement to the legality of the 1940 agreement, thus the UN accepted Bukovina( and Bessarabia) in 1941-1944 as a Soviet territory under occupation. The current title avoid such potential disputes.Xasha (talk) 20:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Except that there was no agreement in 1940. UN did not even exist back then. And Soviet Russia was not in the League of Nations as the civilized countries were. The current title, respectfully, is incorrect, as it should refer to people, not territory; and it is fractional: Bukovina and Herta region do fall in, as the deportations did not stop at historic border of the Bessarabia: they were conducted simultaneously, in the same days, in the entire these regions. In Galicia there were different, independent events. Let's accept it is about history, and how a country treated the citizens of another country, not about post-war events in the former country. That goes in Moldavian SSR.Dc76\^talk 20:36, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

So says the treaty, and that's kind of the fundament for the peace in Europe today. So I doubt anyone can officially reject it. Let's not talk about who was civilized and not. Remember that Romania left Bessarabia with a low alphabetisation rate and an unproductive agriculture (and no industry), things that were solved by "uncivilized" Soviets. We already have Soviet deportations from Estonia. Those people were mixed ethnically mixed. And by calling them Romanians you are dishonouring the memory of the deportees. The only time deportations in Bessarabia and Bukovina were concurrent was in June 1941, but those were also concurrent with the deportations from the Baltic states, so I see no reason for including Bukovina, and not Latvia or Estonia. Also Yug and Sever happened only in MSSR. This is about deportations of Soviet nationals, not about citizens of another country.Xasha (talk) 20:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Supporting the move back

1. Dc76\^talk 18:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Opposing the move back

1. Leave this page alone, and create a new one about Romanian citizens deported from non-Soviet territory after World War II. ( Or expand Flight and expulsion of Germans from Romania during and after World War II to include non-German Romanian citizens)Xasha The information about the Chernivtsi Oblast could be included along the deportations in the recovered territories of Western Ukraine ( as regions formerly under capitalist rule, they witnessed a similar epuration campaign) (talk) 18:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

And how about Romanian citizens on Soviet territory? According to sources, we have ca. 200,000 deported in all Stalin's years. Splitting the subject like this would be creating an obvious content fork. Flight and expulsion of Germans from Romania during and after World War II is a specialized article, it only deals with a very well defined part of this, it is a very logical subarticle of this, as there will be others, like Operation Sever and Operation Yug. Dc76\^talk 18:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The only Romanian citizens deported from a Soviet territory to another Soviet territory where Romanian POWs, and we already have an article about them.Xasha (talk) 18:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is exactly where we differ: I mean to say that this claim of yours is incorrect. These people did not withdraw Romanian citizenship in 1940, and they did not reply in 1941. We are not talking abuot POWs here, that is a different question. Dc76\^talk 19:10, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

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