Talk:Southern United States/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions about Southern United States. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Maryland and Delaware???

I just stopped by this article, and was confused to see Maryland and Delaware are both striped. This struck me as odd, as neither state is considered Southern, nor have they been since before the Civil War. In addition, the Northern, Mid-Atlantic, and Northeast articles all have Maryland and Delaware as dark red on their maps.

The Southern map seems to contradict these other sources and espouses an opinion that the overwhelming majority of people no longer consider valid. If somebody doesn't take those two states off the map, I'll do it myself.

Notice that Southern American English doesn't reach to either Maryland or Delaware: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Languagesacrossthestates2.png —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Nanaszczebrzeszyn (talk • contribs)

Maryland has a large amount of diversity for being a small state. Its long and somewhat troubled history as a "border state" is reflective of this. The western part of the state is mountainous and considered a part of Appalachia. The north-central part of the state is rolling hills and farm country, very indicative of PA. The central part of the state is dominated by the cities of Baltimore its suburbs, and the suburbs of DC. Lastly southern MD and the Eastern Shore are southern in dialect, their slave owning plantation economy pre-1865, and there southern self-identification before, during, and after the civil war. Obviously, MD is not completely "Southern." Neither the map nor the page claim that is. Please look at the following website and map to see the inclusion of parts of MD in the Southern Dialect. These maps are based on research done by the University of Pennsylvania's William Labov, one of the premier dialectal linguists in America, http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/MapsS/Map1S.html http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/home.html

Also note that dark red on the Mid-Atlantic, Northeast and Northern US page maps means "usually" not always. So it is not a contradiction to say that MD is "usually"(red) included in the North, but "sometimes" (light pink) included in the South

If you want some evidence that their are still Marylanders that self-identify as "Southerners," some aggressively so, check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Maryland Lasersnake 19:09, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

ever considered that the northern pages might be wrong/biased and the Southern pages are right about these two states? WillC 00:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Regions can and do overlap, there is nothing wrong with a state appearing in multiple regions. Kmusser 21:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

i totally agree. WillC 22:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

++++ I don't think the Maryland situation will ever be resolved in a manner that pleases everyone. I thought the strips would do it, since that indicates that Maryland is southern in *certain contexts,* but it appears that people don't get that a state can belong to more than one region (that's why they are border states). By the original poster's own admission, half of the state geographically is more southern culturally. The problem is, there will always be someone who wants it removed, and someone else that wants it added.

++++ Now, if Maryland is *solidly* a northern state, I think there should be an addition in it's article that mentions that Maryland is the *only* northern state that offers Son of Confederate Veterans license plates :)

I would like to share an anecdote that relates to Maryland and Southern identity. I was in Savannah, having coffee at a cafe on Madison square, when I overheard a student from the Savannah College of Art and Design complain that people in Savannah kept making fun of her for being a "Yankee." Obviously tired of being made fun of by the locals, she said to a fellow student, in a Northern accent without so much as a trace of the Southern: "But I tell them 'I'm not a Yankee, I'm from Maryland.' Maryland's south of that line -- whatever it's called -- isn't it?" -- mscallis, 24 Jan 2007

++++ What really annoys me is not if Maryland is north or south; in the long run, it doesn't matter. It is attitudes like this that bug me: "The Southern map seems to contradict these other sources and espouses an opinion that the overwhelming majority of people no longer consider valid. If somebody doesn't take those two states off the map, I'll do it myself." Someone who was not involved in creating the map or the prior, what, months of discussion, comes along and decides he doesn't like something, so he changes it without even debating the issue first. It isn't local to this article, obviously, but it is something I think is a fundamental flaw with the information found on Wikipedia.

>>Personally, as I stated time and time again in the now "Archived" discussion, I have no strong feelings one way or another about Maryland being "sometimes/occasionally" considered Southern, and voted to exclude Delaware completely. BUT...I totally agree with the above poster that there were some of us who spent months discussing/debating the whole map and inclusion/exclusion topic, then finally settled on something (two maps and three tones) that everyone could agree on. And for someone -- which could be anyone -- who wasn't in on it to suddenly change it without discussing it first is very presumptuous. TexasReb 21:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

(Begin Comment) Maryland has never been Southern enough for the South, or Northern enough for the North. It is a border state and is stuck in between. I think it is obvious that there has been enough linguistic, cultural, agricultural, geographic, economic, and self-identification evidence presented in the multiple discussions on multiple Wikipages to say that MD is "sometimes" thought of as being the South. I suspect these reverts and discussions will keep popping up, but the evidence speaks for itself. Anyone who tries to completely exclude MD from the South is basing it on opinion. Lasersnake 13:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Maryland? Oh, It's southern alright.

Maryland? I from Maryland and i did a survey on my college class. I asked them if they believe Maryland is north or south 64%(average) said it is south, along with virginia, and Kentucky(also Missouri & Oklahoma)the rest said the five other states were also south. I go with the majority of my class(we are in College Park, Md) But i am only one person. I really don't think that modern Maryland is CULTURY north, but idustrial, like the north. Maryland actually reminds me of the time i went to Atlanta, Georgia to visit resitives. I belive we are simalar to certain place in the south. I just don't know why everyone is hootin and hollin!!!! Everyone has their opinion! And all those surveys, please. Not everyone in those so called "NORTHERN" states took the survey, so who says that just because twenty people say it's north and two say its south, actually GOES! Yall are just acting like a bunch of immature brats trying to prove a point! Yall whining just because the Census Buero(i can't spell!haha..and im a teacher!) says that maryland, and all these other states is south! Oh, please. Is that your biggest accomplishment in life? All im trying to say is that Maryland is southern and so is Virginia. Especialy those two states! People hoot and holler just because Maryland and Virginia are modernised, therefore they have to be North. That's like saying that anywhere in the south can't be anything but cotton and corn fields because its in the south. times hve changed and many places in the south are too. Don't you see places like Charleston, Birmingham, Atlanta, and Nashville??? They are very advanced! People stupidly catorgorize Maryland & other SOUTHERN places as the North just because Baltimore, Fairfax, DC, and other cities. Might I add, Virginia is southern because of it's confederness and Maryland is southern because slavery was FORCED to stop. Also, if you see demographics on the article page, Sothern places(Md and below) have mostly AFRICAN AMERICAN ancenstors(because of the slavery), unlike the REAL NORTH EAST. And i know the North east. I went to college in NY for 2 years, but then i got tired of the buisy street life, and the below zero tempetures! I moved to the university of Maryland to get another dose of the simple life(i lived in Decatur, GA in high school) or something like my home. It's exactly like my other home in Decatur because MARYlAND IS SOUTH. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.104.130.150 (talk) 04:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

Maryland is marginally Southern, and this is how it is recognized on this map. We're not completely discounting the Southern element in MD, but it would be inaccurate to label modern MD as a "purely" Southern state, when (at least according to one survey) over 80% of MD residents don't consider themselves Southerners. There was a rather long and arduous debate that preceded the creation of the new map system, and this was the overwhelming consensus among editors. People from states where the Southern element is heaviest - such as Missisippi or Louisiana - by and large would not consider either MD or DE to be a part of the South in anything other than a historical sense. A variety of objective sources besides the Census Bureau do not consider MD to be a Southern state. But I do get your point, because I tend to distrust "pigeonhole" treatments of any of the border states. --70.168.88.158 06:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Maryland

It is my personal belief that that person who began this section is likely not telling the truth. First of all, I have lived in the Deep South, and the notion that anyone could see Maryland and Georgia as being remotely similar, let alone the same, is impossible. It's just not believable at all.

I'm not saying I prefer one side over the other, as both had qualities that I enjoyed, but I certainly thought from day one that the two parts of the country were vastly different. The comment about weather was also something that sounded a bit off; maybe someone who'd never been to the state would believe that Maryland has similar wintertime temperatures to Georgia, but I actually lived there and won't fall for it. Temperatures all over the state regularly dip below freezing, and my grandmother told me just the other night over the phone that it was 7 degrees outside at her Baltimore-area home.

And the statistic about 64% of Marylanders considering themselves Southerners (particularly in College Park) seems entirely bogus. That figure is not tenable. Beyond flying in the face of the Southern Focus Study (in which, as the last person noted, 81% of Marylanders firmly categorized themselves as Northern), it flies in the face of common sense.

I liked the South, which is another reason that such comments bother me; many people arguing against Maryland's inclusion in Dixie seem to be Northerners who are insulted at the idea of their state being mentioned in the same breath as Virginia or Tennessee.

Yet the South itself has a very distinctive culture, and to arbitrarily throw a state in that has no societal connections with the region undermines Southern uniqueness. There is a flavor here that is hard to relay to those who haven't experienced it. Down in the South, a sort of unspoken easiness and contentedness seems to predominate in every aspect of life. The food, the work, the sports (even the weather) seems geared around this lifestyle.

Sweet tea, home fries, grits, a slow and melodic accent that almost drips with honey, these are all the essences of Southern charm that have made the states of the former Confederacy so famous throughout the world.

A deep sense of religious purpose also pervades, a silently acknowledged solidarity under a decidedly-Christian God. It seems that almost everyone here goes to church.

In Maryland, such things do not exist. That is not to say that Maryland is a bad place to be, because it's not. Marylanders are an entrepreneuring, enterprising, hardworking people. The state runs at a brisk pace, and there is a very strong feeling of work in need of finishing. Constantly, things are being done. Maryland is on a schedule. The accent is a strong one, almost barked out at you, in a way that is garrulous and firm but clearly friendly. Marylanders remind me of the cantakerous old man who calls his grandson a hippy and then gives him a punch on the shoulder.

Marylanders are often very blunt, and do not care to the extent that Southerners do about sparing one's feelings. They are direct and would rather get their point across than make someone else feel good. Their culture is very marine-based, and Baltimore is a strong point of pride. In their politics, they are as liberal as neighboring Virginia is conservative, and are fiercely unapologetic about that fact.

The same man who owns a cache of guns will tell you outright that he's voted a straight Democratic ticket all his life and then ask you if you have a problem with it.

So far as religion goes, there are major differences between Maryland and the South (I include Virginia in that category and often use if for convenient comparison). In Maryland, there is not the tendency to discuss one's religion as there is in the Southern states. Faith is an important part of many people's lives, but they don't view it as being anyone else's business. The typical Marylander would not stand up and pontificate about Jesus as the typical Virginian would.

And speaking of religion, another very critical deviation exists: among white Southerners, I noticed that the vast majority of my friends were Protestants of some some sort. Particularly, most tended to congregate toward the Baptist and Methodist confessions. As a result, most of the people I knew attended all of the same churches.

In Maryland, the majority of my friends were, by a wide margin, Catholic. These young men and women, too, normally went to church together, but of course they were reluctant to bring it up outside of chapel walls. My grandmother is the perfect example of this; Catholic all her life, yet not too keen on discussion. I often felt left out in school, because at one point the whole of the student body was preparing for their upcoming confirmations. And then every year around April would come the complaints about Lent and not being able to eat meat on certain days.

As I have said, I love both sides in different ways, but I would never, ever lump them together. Maryland is more similar to Pennsylvania, and even those two states differ strongly in certain aspects. Vast swaths of central Pennsylvania are deeply conservative, and in general I would categorize Pennsylvania (excluding Philadelphia and Pittsburgh) as being more Southern than Maryland.

Of all the states I've been, Maryland reminds me most of Connecticut. Baltimore and New Haven residents would identify well with each other.

Maryland is definitely Northern, and Virginia is definitely Southern (though at this point I would label Virginia a border state due to the influence that its northern quarter exerts, especially pertaining to politics).

Sunlight07 22:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)Sunlight 07

++++ Just curious if you actually visited any part of the state other than Baltimore? Waldorf, Prince Frederick, Easton, Salisbury? [Lived there most of my life, so yes] It strikes me as odd that the majority of you friends were Catholic when only about 1/5 of the population in Maryland is Catholic; the largest demonination in Maryland is Baptist [Not true: 23% are Roman Catholic while only 18% are Baptist (source:[1])] As for being a Democratic state, you'll notice that in the 2006 elections, only 5 counties (including Baltimore city) voted Democratic, and several of them were marginal victories [Yeah, and between those five counties is the huge majority of the population, which would explain why Bill Clinton did better in Maryland than in any other state except his native Arkansas] While living in Maryland, I found sweet tea and home fries (although not grits) easy to come by [Could've fooled me]. It may have been 7 degrees in Baltimore when you spoke to your grandmother, but if so, it was darn close to the all time low set it 1934 :) [Well, it was 11 degrees there this morning, so I guess it's a record-breaking year. The low in Baltimore is set for 8 degrees tonight ([2])] Baltimore, at its coldest, averages 45 degrees, well above freezing. [Highs are at or below freezing all this week.] Yes, the Baltimore accent is closely related to the Philidelphia accent. What makes them different? Linguists describe Baltimore English as Philidelphia English with a Southern accent [Wow. Having grown up there, I can't imagine how I never realized this.] Maryland and Virginia have nothing in common? This one I won't even touch, it is so far from the historical reality. [Of course. I suppose I've only imagined the vast differences in religion, politics, weather, demographics, and economics. I've only actually lived in both places.]

++++ My only real point is that one must actually research, not just go off of feelings. Visiting the Baltimore/Washington area and saying "I understand Maryland" is akin to visiting Atlanta and saying "I understand Georgia." Sorry, but there is more to both states than their largest cities. [Once again, you know more about my home state than I do. My mistake.]

++++ Ah, and since I brought up DC, sorry, but economically and historically, DC has way more in common with Atlanta, Charlotte, and other Southern cities than Northern cities. [Wink, wink.] Both grew and expanded without heavy industry. White flight, leading to the growth of suburbs, etc. Baltimore was one of the largest cities in the US (I believe 4th largest) prior to the Civil War. It did have heavy industry, mostly related to the production of final goods from the raw products of the rest of the South. You'll note a large economic decline after the Civil War... [Which is why Baltimore is ranked among the most important ports in the Northeastern United States]

++++ And just as a last point, Charleston's culture focuses on maritime activities as well. Charleston, economically, depends heavily on the water; it is one of the nation's largest container ports and there are many local shrimpers and oystermen (just like there are many crabers and oystermen in Maryland, Virginia, and North Carolina, etc). So, I fail to see how the fact that the Chesapeake is vital to Maryland, or that Baltimore is a maritime city, indicates it is not Southern. [I did not mean it that way.]

Some rules of order for MD discussion

Ok, this discussion on MD's inclusion or exclusion from the "South" continues to rage on, with no sign of resolution. I would like to put forth some suggestions on how to organize and focus our discussion in order to more easily and logically reach a consensus. I propose to keep this thread monitered and only include comments that meet two criteria.

1. The topic for discussion is "Is Maryland SOMETIMES/OCCASIONALLY considered a Southern state." This narrow focus is needed to avoid drifting back to larger and utterly unanswereable question of whether MD is entirely a Northern or Southern state.

2. Only peer-reviewed,objective data and academic discussion on this data is allowed. By peer-reviewed data, I mean articles, surveys, maps, or studies that have been written by acknowleged experts in their field, and published in academic journals. Academic discussion simply means debating or supporting the merits or interpretation of this data.

Here are some examples of what should be allowed.

1. Maryland should not be SOMETIMES considered a Southern State based on the the article Changing Usage of Four American Regional Labels, by Professor James R. Shortridge (Department of Geography, University of Kansas)and published in Annals of the Association of American Geographers, a highly-respected, peer-reviewed work. In Vol. 7, Number 3 of this journal (September 1987) that finds that only 2% of Marylanders self-identify themselves as living in the South

2. Maryland can be SOMETIMES considered Southern based on the fact that large parts of Southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore speak Southern dialects as defined by Prof. Bill Labov's Dialectal Atlas project at the U. of Penn. Here is a link to the map http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/MapsS/Map1S.html

Here are some examples of what should NOT be allowed.

1. I did a survey in my college class and 20 of the 30 people said MD is Southern

2. Southerns are polite, people from Baltimore, MD are rude,therefore MD is a Northern State

3. My grandaddy was from Maryland and he had a Southern drawl and cooked up a mean mess of greens, MD is the South.

I don't want to silence anyone's free speech, but comments like this are not advancing our discussion and should be somewhere else. I am willing to move them to an archived discussion on another page. What do people think of this suggestion? I will not act unilaterally on this idea, but I am willing to help moniter this thread to keep the discussion moving forward. Lasersnake 15:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with those suggestions and that general framework for debate. Otherwise, in another month we'll have to archive comments on MD as it's heading down that path rapidly. The word "sometimes" HAS to be used, or else Southern and Northern factions in MD, each with their own qualified sources, will never reach a compromise here. --70.168.88.158 21:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, I have moved some of the discussion to the archive, my next step to organize the threads with simple titles like "Southern Research Survey" or "Dialectal Evidence," etc. Please don't take offense if I removed YOUR posts (I moved alot of my content too). Feel free to review anything and everything I move and add it back in to a thread where you think it belongs. If anyone would like to comment on the guidelines for debate, or dispute anything that was moved, please put it in the thread entitled, "Discussion of Rules for debate". Also, separate threads not discussing MD will be kept on this page. It is only the Maryland content that is in need of some organization. Please let me know if I do too much or too little, and everyone should feel free to move information or propose improvements on how to move forward. I don't want to seem domineering in these moves, but I think this article will benefit from a more structured debate. Thanks. Lasersnake 18:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of Rules of Order

Yes, but no. The problem here is that a very tiny and vocal minority insist that Maryland is Southern, and they will not lay down their case. As stated in the last post, 98.06% of the people in the state think of it as Northern. That is not an even split. If we will allow less than 2% of the population to define the state, than we must similarly note that Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, North Carolina, and even Florida are "somewhat Northern" due to the fact that far larger minorities in all of those places do not regard themselves as Southerners.

Do you see what I mean? The logic we're using here is insane! We're talking about less than 2% of the population--LESS THAN 2%! It just boggles my mind!

And I never said Marylanders were rude; I said that they were more brusque and direct, but not that they were in any way impolite.

I will agree to the parameters you have set, with the condition that we should reach a definitive answer on this question, not simply label the state "marginally Southern" for the sake of compromise and at the expense of fact. For most people, this is not an issue.

Sunlight07 22:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)Sunlight07

Sunlight. I agree that the "Changing Usage of Four American Regional Labels, by Professor James R. Shortridge" is a useful piece of information for our discussion, but I have a few questions about it. Using terms like "North, South, East, West" may have lead people towards geographically labeling their state rather than culturally identifying themselves. Also I am not sure terms like "South" and "East" are mutually exclusive. That meaning, someone could say "SC is an Eastern State and a Southern State," and not find a contridiction to that. Constrast that with someone trying to say "SC is a Southern state and a Northern State." Obviously these two terms are mutually exclusive. I will get into this more in the previous thread. Also, I wasn't referering to anyone specific post or poster when I listed the "bad" comments, they were fictionalizations I came up with off of the top of my head based some of the things I had remembered reading during the multiple threads on multiple pages about MD. Sorry if you thought I was refering to you or anyone else directly. Moving forward, I am going to try to organize some of this debate into more organized threads and focus in on some of the specific research we can use. Lasersnake 13:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Maryland discussion - Vaux's research on the use of "y'all"

Here's something else that might aid us in the discussion. I wanted to provide another interesting analysis of linguistics; one based on a more subtle detail, such as usage of the word “y’all” as a plural form. The University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee did a comprehensive dialect survey across the US, asking randomly selected participants to answer 122 questions about certain linguistic habits. The chief coordinator of the study was Dr. Bert Vaux, Associate Professor of Linguistics, Harvard University. Question 50 of that survey asked “What word(s) do you use to address a group of two or more people?” The available choices were: a. you all b. yous, youse c. you lot d. you guys e. you 'uns f. yins g. you h. other i. y'all. There was an extremely strong correlation between states of the South and usage of the word y’all; no state outside of the South had more than 8% or so of residents report using the word “y’all”, while that word was used by a majority or plurality in most of the South. I ranked the results here and broke them into two groups – more than half, and less than half using “y’all.”

More than half using “y’all”: 1. Mississippi – 85.47% 2. Louisiana – 79.30% 3. Texas – 73.09% 4. Alabama – 72.81% 5. South Carolina – 71.83% 6. Georgia – 71.15% 7. Arkansas – 69.17% 8. North Carolina – 66.13% 9. Tennessee – 62.15%

Less than half using “y’all”: 1. Oklahoma – 46.35% 2. Virginia – 44.03% 3. Florida – 41.49% 4. Kentucky – 39.00% 5. West Virginia – 28.35% 6. Delaware – 20.93% 7. Maryland – 20.52% 8. Missouri – 13.44%

And, as a sort of “control group”, four non-Southern states: 1. California – 6.8% 2. Illinois – 6.05% 3. Colorado – 6.78% 4. Pennsylvania – 4.08%

Interestingly, the correlation between the states with less than half using “y’all” was perfect between the states where less than half self-identify as “Southern” in the American Geographers article – save for Florida, which would be expected. Regarding Maryland and Delaware, while we cannot say to any degree of certainty that usage of “y’all” connotes “Southern-ness”, it is one of the words most commonly associated with the American South, and these states are still in a rather bizarre position between North and South in the survey – nowhere near that many people in any Northern state used y’all, but neither of these states came remotely close to most Southern states. Still, they’re both far closer – probably by several standard deviations – to the Northern states. If anything surprised me in this study, it was that Missouri had fewer people using “y’all” than either MD or DE – something I would have not expected.

The entire survey, broken down by state, is accessible here – [3] --70.168.88.158 23:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I have always said "you guys," as long as I can remember.

Sunlight07 23:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)Sunlight07

++++ But, that is the point, Sunlight07. You are taking your personal feelings and projecting them onto the entire state. As I mentioned before, the onus is on you to *research* and prove that Maryland is not *sometimes/occassionally/by some definitions/whatever* is considered Southern. From my standpoint, it is clear that Maryland is in fact, atleast sometimes, considered Southern. For example, the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond oversees Maryland, Virginia, North Caronlina, and South Caronlina. All considered to be Southern states in this instance.

++++ I am sorry if disagreeing with you annoys you, but as long as the map includes *all* modern definitions of the South, Maryland is definitely included in some of those definitions. Just to point out how, despite your confidence that you *just know* something, but are wrong, the top container ports on the east coast are New York, Hampton Roads, and Charleston. Baltimore is currently the 18th largest city in the United States, a far cry from the 1800s rank. As to temperatures, I did say *average.* Sure, it gets below freezing in Charleston as well, but the *average* is what is used to describe weather patterns, not outliers. Demographics and economics different in MD and VA? What about the economic fact that both states rely heavily on the Federal government for jobs? How about both growing tobacco as a cash crop (which has dramatically been reduced in Maryland since 2001 by the state buyout program). How about both being important in the IT sector, with service based economies? How about the Mid Atlantic Space port, located in VA, sponsored by both states? What about the the "Virginia-Maryland Regional Veterinary College" located on Virgina Tech's campus? Westvaco, headquartered in Richmond, was founded in Western Maryland. Since you live in Maryland, take a day and watch the amount of traffic that crosses the Potomac River, then do the same on I-83 into PA. You will be amazed at the difference. There is a reason why north of Baltimore you find farm land. I could go on, but obviously you get the point. I am really not that interested in going further, but suffice it to say that I am an economist, and when I tell you that Maryland and Virginia are tightly bound economically, it is not opinion. Demographics? Annapolis, as I am sure you will know, was founded by Virginians (that covers a bit of history as well).

++++ From the wikipedia article on Virginia: The five largest reported ancestry groups in Virginia are: African American (19.6%), German (11.7%), American (11.2%), English (11.1%), Irish (9.8%).

++++ Maryland: The five largest reported ancestries in Maryland are German (15.7%), Irish (11.7%), English (9%), American (5.8%), and Italian (5.1%[4]).

++++ Not all that different. Both have high African American populations, but Maryland has about 30% while Virginia has about 20%.

++++ As for history, look to your state song.

++++ Although I am not a Marylander, I have lived there as well for many years. That said, it really won't upset me if Maryland is not included in the South. However, I do feel that given the obivious evidence that it is *sometimes* considered Southern (like helping to found the SEC :)), that it is the oppositions responsibility to prove that Maryland is *never* considered Southern.

You miss my point. There will always be a small group of fanatics no matter what anyone else says, and this it is impossible to prove that Maryland is never considered Southern. No matter what, there will always be those so detached from reality that they can actually believe that Maryland and Georgia (or even, let's face it, Maryland and Virginia) belong to the same region.

I cannot alter that. But your logic is flawed.

If I were to add to the Holocaust article, "The Holocaust is sometimes/marginally considered an elaborate hoax orchestrated by Zionists bent on world domination," I would technically be right. Yet nobody actually takes these loony-bins seriously.

Once again, I reiterate, 1.94%. We are having this discussion...because of 1.94%. Simply unbelievable.

Sunlight07 00:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)Sunlight07

++++ Two things. First, I must again state that the map reflects more than just personal identification. But, even if it did, the fact that the Southern Focus poll shows that 40% of people living in Maryland think it is a Southern state says something. While the majority of those living in Maryland do not feel themselves to be Southern is a different issue. Visit Myrtle Beach an hour and a half from me in SC. With the number of retirees there, I have a strong feeling that a large number of people living in the area will not say that they are Southern. Try the same experiement in the Cary, NC area. Does that mean Myrtle Beach and Cary are no longer in the South?

++++ Second, by all definitions, Maryland and Virgina *are* in the same region. Now, whether or not both are Southern is a different matter. But, both were considered Chesapeake colonies in early America and continue their close relationship to this day. In fact, you can see arguments by both Marylanders and Virginians on the Mid Atlantic page that "Mid Atlantic" *means* Maryland and Virginia.

++++ And besides, a sample of 206 people in a state of 5.3 million, producing the 1.94% Southern identification statistic, isn't what I would call a reliable measure.

++++ And I apologize for not actually citing my sources as suggested in an above post. I admit, it is completely out of laziness, and also the fact that I am not really defending anything in the article so much as oppossing changing anything based off of opinion without actual research (yeah, not very convincing if I don't cite things myself). Hopefully what I have said is either obvious (which I think most is), or easily found with Google.

I'm not particularly interested in the MD discussion (though I find it interesting - for the record, I believe that the current treatment of MD is fine, because it is evident that the state is sometimes considered Southern, even if only in a quirky, mercurial sense, i.e. by the Census Bureau, in terms of accent, or by self-identification of a small minority of residents), but I wanted to state that the study that I posted is just as, if not more, reliable than the Southern Focus one, which has been heavily used in decision-making here even though a link to text of the study was never provided. In statistics, a proper, random sample of 200 people can be far more accurate than a poorly designed, haphazard sample of 10,000 people. As a matter of fact - if the text posted in the archive is true - only 173 Marylanders were polled for the Southern Focus Study numbers - a smaller amount than in this one! If it appeared in a peer-reviewed journal specializing in American geography, it is most definitely reliable and relevant to our discussion here. If anything I have more faith in this study than the Southern Focus one; this study was presented on data gathered with no "background noise", whereas the Southern Focus Study included questions about accent, Confederate flags, etc. that may have affected the answers of some of the participants (and also because I highly distrusted the numbers for Kentucky that the Southern Focus Study reported.) The Changing Regional Labels study just looked at what people identify as given the choice of East, South, Midwest, or West. And it does, for whatever it means to our decision making, show that only 1.94% of Marylanders used the term "South" to describe their state. --70.168.88.158 02:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

++++ I apologize, I didn't mean to infer that the study you posted to is not relevant or less reliable than the Southern Focus study. I simply meant to point out that focusing on a number, where ever that number comes from, is not the end-all-be-all of what should and should not be included on the map as long as the map is an attempt to capture all definitions of the South.

++++ This link maybe interesting... Just out of curiosity, I Googled for "Where is the South?" and this was one of the first links. I find it interesting for the fact that, much like the discussion here, the answers are all over the place. Check out the comments. http://bamber.blogspot.com/2004/06/where-is-south.html

Maryland discussion on the Shortridge Article

OK, it has seemed to me for a long time that an ungodly amount of importance was being assigned to that one non-collaborated Southern Focus Study in this article, so I wanted to search through accredited academic journals to see if I could find a viable alternative (for one thing, because I didn’t trust some of its findings). I did in the Annals of the Association of American Geographers, a highly-respected, peer-reviewed work. In Vol. 7, Number 3 of this journal (September 1987), in the article Changing Usage of Four American Regional Labels, Professor James R. Shortridge (Department of Geography, University of Kansas) seeks, through a statistically random analysis of identification cards sent out with a product, to identify contemporary trends of regional self-identification in terms of the four labels “East”, “West”, “South”, and “Midwest.” Based on self-reported identifications, he found a rather low correlation between our traditional boundaries and contemporary (well, contemporary as of 1987!!) self-identifications. The term “East” – which one would typically associate with the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast – was particularly interesting. For example, even in South Carolina, a relatively large percentage of people – just about 25% - chose the term “East” over the term “South” to describe their region. As would be expected, this trend was even more pronounced in North Carolina, with about 35 percent choosing the term “East” over the term “South.” An interestingly large percentage of people in Oklahoma – some 73% - chose the term “Midwestern” over the term “Southern.” Of the states considered to any possible extent “Southern on this page, here is a ranked list in terms of percentage of people who chose “South” as their primary regional identification. I also included the absolute sizes of the samples. These numbers reflected geography much more so than self-identifications, though Dr. Shortridge did acknowledge that for many people, emotional self-identification and/or region of birth may have played a role in the choice of label. Obviously, though some 88% of Floridians in this study identified their region as “Southern”, nowhere near that many would likely identify themselves as Southern. I divided them into four groups – more than 75%, more than 50%, less than half, and less than 10%.

More than 75%: 1. Louisiana – 194/199 – 97.49% 2. Mississippi – 72/75 – 96% 3. Alabama – 122/130 – 93.85% 4. Florida – 244/277 – 88.09% 5. Georgia – 147/168 – 87.5% 6. Tennessee – 156/190 – 82.11%

More than 50%: 1. Arkansas – 56/77 – 72.73% 2. South Carolina – 66/91 – 72.53% 3. Texas – 526/739 – 71.18% 4. North Carolina – 87/145 – 60%

Less than half: 1. Kentucky – 112/234 – 47.86% 2. Virginia – 84/343 – 24.5% 3. Oklahoma – 32/207 – 15.46% 4. West Virginia – 13/87 – 14.94%

Less than 10%: 1. Missouri – 17/415 – 4.10% 2. Maryland – 4/206 - 1.94% 3. Delaware – 0/21 – 0% (I found that particularly amusing)

For another perspective, among the states with less than half, here are the two largest groups: 1. Kentucky – South 47.86%, Midwest 32.48% 2. Virginia – East 72.89%, South 24.5% 3. Oklahoma – Midwest 74.4%, South 15.46% 4. West Virginia – East 80.46%, South 14.94% 5. Missouri – Midwest 91.8%, South 4.1% 6. Maryland – East 96.6%, South 1.94% 7. Delaware – East 100% (the sample for DE was small, but DE is a proportionally small state)

And for a last analysis, some “troublesome” counties in various transitional regions:

Tulsa County, OK (transition between South and Midwest) – 84.4% Midwest, 4.4% South. El Paso County, TX (transition between South and West) – 61.3% West, 19.35% South. Henrico-Richmond City, VA (transition between South and East) – 82.6% East, 17.4% South. Baltimore City, MD (transition (??) between South and East) - 95.83% East, 4.17% South. Kenton County, KY (transition between South and Midwest) – 61.5% Midwest, 23.1% South.

The most interesting piece I could pull out of this was that it perfectly corresponded to the old map system used on this page, with the exception of Virginia; none of the striped states on that old map (those were Kentucky, Oklahoma, West Virginia, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware) had a simple majority of residents in this study self-identify as Southerners, Kentucky being the only one of those states where Southerners formed a plurality. Delaware had none at all! I’m not trying to establish that study as being more or less valid than the Southern Focus one. However, it was published in a highly respected journal, and thus it was peer-reviewed by specialists in American culture and geography. Take it or reject it. I just wanted to provide a good, verifiable, NPOV alternative to the Southern Focus Study, and this article accomplishes that purpose. The Southern Focus Study is not the "Bible of the South."

The article is accessible via JSTOR, at [4] --70.168.88.158 06:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I remember this study, 70, and have it around somewhere as well (seems like I have a lot of things around "somewhere" but can't seem to locate! LOL). In any event, I ordered a hard copy of it from the Geographers Association some years back (before the days of the internet). Thanks for sharing it. TexasReb 12:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

It is currently 5 degrees in Westminster, Maryland ([5]) and 11 degrees in Baltimore City. Just a comment about weather. The last post seems to prove pretty conclusively that Maryland is not a Southern state. If we keep it in that category due to the opinions of 1.94% of the people, we have crossed the line into ridiculous. By that logic, Virginia (where 40% do not identify as Southern) is part of the Northeast.

++++ In fact, on the Northeast wikipage you will notice arguments to that exact point :) Regions are fluid, and there is no definite end of one and the start of another.

Regarding the term "East", Dr. Shortridge notes, on page 331 that: "The Atlantic Coast transition zone (from South to East) undoubtedly would look quite different had the Cobra people inserted a North box on their warranty cards instead of an East one. Reed showed dislike for the North still to be an important factor in North Carolina life in 1971 (1983, 15-18). Presumably even those Carolinians who objected to the label South could never call themselves Northerners. East, however, would seem to be a convenient, relatively neutral alternative term for many people...Carolinians still identify more frequently with the South than the East."

There could have indeed been some confusion as to what the terms meant (South region of my state? East as in Southeast, or Northeast?) but the fact that the study more or less perfectly matched to established regional/cultural boundaries seems to suggest that it was minor - Dr. Shortridge suggests that this was the case in, his estimate, only about 1% of survey-takers. This analysis is collaborated by a section near the end of the study, on page 334, in which he notes that some people chose "alternative" labels when identifying their region, the most common of which were "Southeast" and "Southwest". He then presents a table of the alternative choices chosen by state. He notes that this samples are relatively small, but still match extremely well to what one would expect. In some "surprising" cases such as SC, where a large percentage of people chose the term "East" over "South", the term "Southeast" was selected by 100% of the "dissenters" as the alternative label - thus explaining that discrepancy. I added up the numbers of those who selected alternative terms, looked at those who selected Southeast, and came up with percentages:

Of those selecting an alternative term, percentage selecting the term "Southeast" 1. Alabama - 100% (reported by 2) 2. Florida - 100% (19) 3. South Carolina - 100% (9) 4. North Carolina - 100% (9) 5. Virginia - 100% (11) 6. Louisiana - 100% (1) 6. West Virginia - 100% (1 - may be considered an "odd" case) 7. Georgia - 85.71% (12/15) 8. Mississippi - 66.7% (2/3) 9. Tennessee - 66.7% (2/3) 10. Maryland - 50% (1 - again, probably an "odd" case) 11. Kentucky - 42.86% (3/7)

(Regarding the samples, it was noted that the study participants seemed to follow the same statistical normal distribution as the general American population and were thus representative - page 326).

That matches fairly well to the Southeastern United States page, though the map on that page likely needs to be reworked. WV and MD, with only one person opting for an alternative term, are probably erroneous data. For the rest, only KY had a minority of residents opting for "Southeast" (I really wish I had this survey available as evidence earlier when some were strongly making the rather dubious argument that Kentucky is just as Southern as Georgia or Tennessee, as these results show that it is indeed a border state of highly diluted Southern character.) As would be expected, TX had a strong majority - 80.5%, 33/41 - opt for the term "Southwest" as an alternative, while not a single Texan chose the term "Southeast" in the sample.

Sorry if I seem a bit aggressive in pushing this thing. But for months on here, several editors insisted heavily, almost entirely on that one Southern Focus Study as a delimiter of what is Southern and what isn't, and virulently argued against any cultural items that seemed to challenge its findings. I found the Southern Focus Study's findings regarding Texas, Maryland, and most especially Kentucky to be highly questionable/debatable, and they seem to contradict both this study and the linguistic study example using "y'all" as a key word that I provided below. --70.168.88.158 16:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Maryland Discussion on Meinig's map

Here is the map created by this country's most reknown geographer

[[6]]

http://www.pfly.net/misc/GeographicMorphology.jpg Louisvillian 19:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Maryland discussion on the Southern Focus Study

VERY similar situation. As is the case with Delaware, so is the case with the Old Line State; for most Marylanders, the idea of being Southern is not even on the radar. There will always be extremists everywhere, but mainstream residents of the state just don't believe it.

Case in point, the Southern Focus Study. A whopping 19% of Marylanders would call themselves Southerners, compared with the similar figure of 15% in Delaware. To say that either state is actually part of Dixie would contradict the self-identification of 81% of Marylanders and 86% of Delawareans.

By that logic, Virginia is a Northern state; only 60% of Virginians consider themselves Southern, which means that an additional 40% do not.

I actually did a survey on this question for a U.S. history class I'm in. I walked around my college campus (which is in the Upper South, but I won't say exactly where) and asked random students three questions:

1. Is Virginia a Northern or a Southern state?
2. Is Maryland a Northern or a Southern state?
3. Where is the Mason-Dixon Line?

The answers I got were:

1. 18% thought Virginia was a Northern state, while 81% thought it was Southern (there were some people who didn't know, which accounts for the missing one or two percentage points).

2. Just under 91% thought Maryland was a Northern state, compared to roughly 9.09% who thought it was Southern.

3.

A. Less than 10% knew where the Mason-Dixon Line was

B. Just over 36% guessed incorrectly

i. Among these:

a. 50% thought that the line was between Maryland and Virginia (corresponding to the widely-held belief that Maryland is a Northern state)

b. 25% believed the Line passed between Virginia and West Virginia

c. 25% believed the Line was "somewhere below Tennessee" (I am honestly not making this up).

C The remaining people in the sample were not confident enough in their knowledge of the Line to give any answer at all, and simply responded, "I do not know."

It certainly seemed to reveal the cultural relevance of the Mason-Dixon Line in the 21st Century...

Sunlight07 00:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC)Sunlight07

Both these discussions are missing the point that Wikipedia is not the place for original research. This page should simply report what reliable sources say. If different sources disagree on whether Maryland or Delaware are "southern", then we should report that too. It's not our job to resolve the question or make a definitive judgment. By that standard, I'd say describing Maryland and Delaware as "occasionally considered southern" is about right---most people don't consider them southern, but a minority do. --Delirium 16:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

++++ Although the map does include self identification and cutural definitions, to me, they are just a subset of what the map attempts to show with "modern definitions." It is pointless to argue if Maryland is cuturally Southern without an established definition of what Southern culture is. But, if the map is to encompass and reflect "modern definitions," it also has to include corporate, governmental, and other organizations definitions as well.

++++ Just out of curiousity, try the college experiement again, but ask if Virginia and Maryland are Northeastern states. I am curious as to the results :) I see Virginia and Maryland as fairly tightly tied together, and they have been in both a modern and historical sense (from colonial times, to the growth of the federal government in the 1950's which lead to their urban development, to the modern daily flow of people across their borders). In my own opinion, I see them both, as well as Delaware and West Virginia, as Mid Atlantic, but would not include any of them in the same grouping as New York or New Jersey. But, again, this is all opinion :)

++++ Oh, and you may already know this, but I think the Maryland nickname "Old Line State" has nothing to do with the Mason-Dixon Line. I believe it comes from the Battle of Cowpens here is SC (the last battle in the Patriot), where Maryland's troops were used as the "troops of the line," which won the battle.

John Shelton Reed

Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)

Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)

West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)

Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)

Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)

West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) New Mexico 13 (68) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16) Utah 11 (70) Indiana 10 (208) Illinois 9 (362) Ohio 8 (396) Arizona 7 (117) Michigan 6 (336)

All others less than 6 percent.

Southern Focus Study. A study that has been conducted for the past decade or so to determine which states identify with the South.

"Check out this essay by John Shelton Reed, "The South: Where Is It? What Is It?" http://xroads.virginia.edu/~DRBR...REED/ tears.html. He makes a persuasive case that the border line is where "Southern" entries in the phone book are 35%. That includes the 11 former Confederate states, minus Texas except for the eastern edge. It includes Kentucky, but not Missouri. It includes a corner of Oklahoma. (The Deep South is a smaller area, while the area of Southern influence is larger.)Reed's maps seem to show that D.C. is within "the South," though not the Deep South--at least as of 1975." Some guy makes reference to Sheldon Reeds study and his conclusion from the Study.Louisvillian 19:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, we have all seen these numbers for the Southern Focus survey many, many times in this article, and they have been used heavily for decision making, even though the actual text of this Southern Focus survey has NEVER ONCE been cited. Both the Southern Focus Survey and the Changing Usage survey suggest that Maryland is marginally Southern, though the Changing Usage survey suggests that it is much less so. We need to consider all qualified sources, not just the Southern Focus survey. And if we are going to continue basing decisions on the Southern Focus survey, it would be helpful to be provided with an Internet link to it, or at least a place where it can be purchased and verified. And informal polls should hold no merit here at all, please see WP:V. This would include informal workplace surveys, surverys about "catfish joints", etc. --70.168.88.158 20:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

http://www.irss.unc.edu/odum/jsp/content_node.jsp?nodeid=242

Here ya go. BTW that source you've given DOES NOT EVEN MENTION THE CITY OF LOUISVILLE. Provide the actual survey and then it will be credible.Louisvillian 03:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The link has already been provided, several times on this page. If you do not have access to JSTOR, I provided an external link via your talk page to the survey. I'm assuming that you've only read the first page of it because it clearly mentions Louisville and Kentucky. --70.168.88.158 05:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

>>Just in case anyone ever thought otherwise, I NEVER intended for that rough attempt of mine to map out the prevalence of "catfish joints", to be taken as even remotely a "qualified" source for finding the boundaries of the South as relates to this article nor its maps. And I hope that much was obvious from the light way I brought it up to begin with.

>>At the same time however, it wasn't exactly an informal questioning of a selected audience either. It was taken from the idea John Reed had of mapping the South by comparing Southern listings to American. In this case I used hamburger as the independent variable and scoured national business listings to get an idea where catfish -- a food item strongly associated with the South -- was most popular in the country. It was done mostly for fun, although in the future I may attempt to fine tune it, write an abstract, and submit it to a geographical publication...just like a planned survey of where black-eyed peas are a tradition on New Years Day. For the moment though, it is nothing more than a little backyard type project I shared as a note of local color with others interested in Southern studies.

>>On a related tangent though, I think we would all agree that, among other things, the South is a state of mind, traditions, customs, and emotion. Therefore, one cannot dismiss studies which attempt to define the region by individual items and coorelations of them which are commonly associated with Dixie. A great example of this is the article Reed once wrote titled "The South. Where Is It? What Is It." Contained with were dozens of maps ranging from where the Southern Baptist Church was most dominent, to the influence of country music, down to where Kudzu grows. TexasReb 20:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hidden Information

Someone (I strongly suspect a Southerner) purposely deleted several pages of my argument and replaced them with the phrase "MASON-DIXON LINE," which seems to be the only response that can be gotten.

Here is the material:

Maryland It is my personal belief that that person who began this section is likely not telling the truth. First of all, I have lived in the Deep South, and the notion that anyone could see Maryland and Georgia as being remotely similar, let alone the same, is impossible. It's just not believable at all.