Talk:Southern Ireland
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Move discussion in progress
[edit]There is a move discussion in progress on Wikipedia talk:Requested moves which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:59, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
- It wasn't meant to be there. The discussion below is the relevant one. Scolaire (talk) 16:56, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress
[edit]There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Southern Ireland (1921–22) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:44, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
'Southern Ireland'
[edit]Of Southern Ireland,[1] 'country' is either too imprecise or implies statehood. SI and NI were part of the country commonly known by its abbreviation the 'United Kingdom'. Qexigator (talk) 08:46, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
- I didn't see this because it was originally posted on the wrong page. At any rate, I think we've reached an understanding via edit summaries. Scolaire (talk) 10:16, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
- Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland were firstly the names of the two territories that the country of Ireland was divided into. Ireland was a country within the country called the United Kingdom. I think Ireland would have remained a country as the partition was supposed to be temporary; it was done to avoid civil war. Wales was regarded as a seperate country within the United Kingdom and it didn't even have it's own parliament. So I guess Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland fit many definitions of "country". AlwynJPie (talk) 20:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
South of Ireland is most commonly used -
[edit]On what planet is this true? - "Southern Ireland, South Ireland or South of Ireland is most commonly used to refer to the southern part of Ireland." I can't find any citations on this page to back this up. Personally the South of Ireland to me has always been the Republic.Dubs boy (talk) 20:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Southern Ireland is a synonym for the Republic of Ireland. Used as such in Ireland and the rest of the world. 92.16.160.88 (talk) 20:58, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Would need cited otherwise should be removed as groundless. Mabuska (talk) 22:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Its use is cited here: Republic of Ireland#Name. Rob984 (talk) 23:01, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Republic of Ireland#Name does not support that but says; it merely states that those names are used and not that they are commonly used. That is what you would need sources for. ww2censor (talk) 23:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Its use is cited here: Republic of Ireland#Name. Rob984 (talk) 23:01, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Would need cited otherwise should be removed as groundless. Mabuska (talk) 22:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Here are two examples where usage of the term Southern Ireland as a synonym of the Republic of Ireland are found: http://www.thesurvivorstrust.org/find-support/southern-ireland/ http://www.uk-bedandbreakfasts.com/sireland/ AlwynJPie (talk) 01:06, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Southern Ireland: The Modern Meaning
[edit]This discussion closed months ago. Please don't resurrect. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:33, 31 December 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
"Southern Ireland" was the official name given to the larger of the two areas that Ireland was partitioned into; i.e. the 26 counties, with the remaining 6 counties being named Northern Ireland. Since the partition the term Southern Ireland has been extensively used to mean this same part of Ireland, now directly administered by the current independant state. The term is never used to mean the province of Munster or for the South Ireland European Parliamentary constituency. The article should firstly address its modern meaning and the origin of the official use of the term. The article should address other uses of the term, such as the 1921-1922 administration, by a hatnote or a seperate disambiguation article. Souhern Ireland's existence as a political entity did end on 6 December 1922. Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland became autonomous regions of the newly created Irish Free State on 6 December 1922 under terms of the Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922. Is there evidence that Southern Ireland ever ended? I speculate that the term Southern Ireland may not have been used because the Free State and the Republic of Ireland claimed sovereignty over the whole island not just the 26 counties. The political status of Southern Ireland has changed a few times since the Partition but the term Southern Ireland continues to be used when referring to Ireland in debates in the UK parliament. Here is a link to one of many examples of UK parliamentary verbatim available where the term Southern Ireland is used for the said context: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmniaf/886/6020107.htm AlwynJPie (talk) 09:44, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
References
Ah the Street Fighter fan IP located to Switzerland returns. If they have a user account, then why do they make so many edits as an IP, and not just that one IP, considering the last number variation they have used? You have an account and you should always use your account otherwise it can come across as socking, especially if your using a VPN. Mabuska (talk) 14:52, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
How successful the administrations formed under the 1920 Act turned out is not the point. The point is two self-governing territories were created by the United Kingdom government. This may not have been recognised by the Irish Republic government which had declared Ireland independent from Great Britain in January 1919 but few countries of the world recognised the Irish Republic as legitimate. AlwynJPie (talk) 13:37, 30 December 2015 (UTC) |
Request to change Southern Ireland from a disambiguation page to an article
[edit]Because Southerm Ireland was the name given to the larger of the two parts of Ireland that were created when Ireland was partitioned under the Government of Ireland Act 1920 and the term Southern Ireland has since almost universally been used to mean this same area of Ireland I feel Southern Ireland does not meet the criteria to warrent it as a disambiguation page and it should become an article with a hatnote to a diambiguation page refered to as Southern Ireland (disambiguation) where other usages of the term can be linked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Disambiguation_pages AlwynJPie (talk) 15:06, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- Articles are about topics. What would the topic be? Would the majority of searches for Southern Ireland be for the topic? Dmcq (talk) 17:16, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- An article on what? The term? You best bet here would be to draft an article, move it into the mainspace if it is accepted at a title such as Southern Ireland (place name), then request that article is moved here on the basis of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Good luck. The reality is the primary topic of this term is Republic of Ireland, but that simply isn't going to go down with the vast majority of editors who actually care. Being directed here is is tolerable however. And much better than the old destination. Irish Republic is the real perplexity... Rob984 (talk) 17:21, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- I was thinking of just a short and simple article that explains the modern meaning and historical origin, with appropriate links and a hatnote for any other possible meanings. AlwynJPie (talk) 18:22, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- Have you got sources showing you have a notable topic? And are you sure that the topic is more notable than the other things users would want to find when they look for Southern Ireland? I don't believe either of those is true so lets see some evidence. Dmcq (talk) 21:19, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
"Erroneously described as Southern Ireland"
[edit]Bkonrad, the name of Ireland, the state, is "Ireland". Under statute, its official description is "the Republic of Ireland". Referring to the state as "Southern Ireland" - either the name of a state that no longer exists, or a geographical description - is, therefore, erroneneous. This is fact, not just POV. There is no need to edit war over this. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:28, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
PS - you may also want to read the prior discussions on the "Southern Ireland" issue... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:30, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
- I agree it's erroneous, though I'm not sure that really needs to be stated. It might be better off in the See also section per MOS:DABSEEALSO: "Some entries may belong in a "See also" section at the bottom of the page: Terms which can be confused with Title". Rob984 (talk) 14:19, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
- It's not erroneous. If it were to be given as an official description of the state, it would be erroneous, but it's not. If it were to be given as a geographical description, it would not be strictly accurate (The Inishowen peninsula being to the north of Northern Ireland), but it's not. It's an informal description: people talk about "the North" and "the South" or about "Northern Ireland" and "Southern Ireland". It's a reasonable and obvious distinction. It does not lead to confusion (though it may lead some people, especially Donegal natives, to get hot under the collar), therefore it is not erroneous. It's simply an aka. It certainly doesn't belong in "See also", it belongs in the main section. Scolaire (talk) 15:13, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
- What Scolaire said. If the description is in fact erroneous, then that should be stated with appropriate verifiable references in Republic of Ireland#Name. Currently this section simply states
... the state is also referred to as "the Republic", "Southern Ireland" or "the South".
older ≠ wiser 15:25, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
- What Scolaire said. If the description is in fact erroneous, then that should be stated with appropriate verifiable references in Republic of Ireland#Name. Currently this section simply states
- It is erroneous to all the Republic of Ireland "Southern Ireland" so if one can not come to a consensus, the entry should be remove altogether. For the time being I've revert it to the status quo. ww2censor (talk) 16:50, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
- Except it wasn't the status quo. This is the status quo; It was stable from December 2015 until yesterday. I'm reverting again, pending discussion. Scolaire (talk) 17:19, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
- With regard to this edit summary, I would not agree that it is "only used by people who lack knowledge of the topic". It is used frequently by Irish people who know exactly where the border runs, and what its historical background is. Per older ≠ wiser, it would need a reliable source to say that it is used erroneously (i.e. in ignorance) rather than simply colloquially. Scolaire (talk) 17:34, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
- A couple of quotes from the top of MOSDAB, mainly for the benefit of Iveagh Gardens re his edits today
- "Disambiguation pages are not articles"
- "In brief, the pages should contain only disambiguation content"
- In other words, a dab page is not a place for editorialising. The linked article is the place for that (or better yet, propose it at the talk page of the linked article). Scolaire (talk) 16:42, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
- A couple of quotes from the top of MOSDAB, mainly for the benefit of Iveagh Gardens re his edits today
- Thanks for the information. I do think there can be a way of disambiguating to Republic of Ireland, while using the name Ireland as the sovereign state, in a way that subtly acknowledges that that Southern Ireland is not the best description. But if I come up with that, I'll propose it here first! —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 09:13, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
- Could I propose changing Republic of Ireland, a state sometimes referred to as "Southern Ireland" to simply Republic of Ireland, a sovereign state". That some people might refer to it as Southern Ireland is almost implied by the fact of it being a disambiguated suggestion. Wikipedia is not a style guide, of course, but I think this wording at least doesn't seem to implicitly accept it as terminology. —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 18:18, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- There has to be a reason for including Republic of Ireland in the "Southern Ireland" disambiguation page. It follows that the reason should be stated. A simple statement of fact does not confer "legitimacy" on the use of a term (I put the word in quotes because it's not used by legitimists of any sort, so I can't see why it possibly matters), and we shouldn't be looking for a way to change it to reflect an editor's point of view. Scolaire (talk) 10:02, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- There will never be an ideal with these things! Fair enough, I'll let it stand! Iveagh Gardens (talk) 21:19, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- The state is Ireland, not the Republic of Ireland.The Republic of Ireland is a reasonable description of the state but it is not the state and should not be referred to as the state. So either 'Ireland, a state sometimes referred to as "Southern Ireland"', or 'The Republic of Ireland which is sometimes referred to as "Southern Ireland"'. Dmcq (talk) 22:36, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- There will never be an ideal with these things! Fair enough, I'll let it stand! Iveagh Gardens (talk) 21:19, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- There has to be a reason for including Republic of Ireland in the "Southern Ireland" disambiguation page. It follows that the reason should be stated. A simple statement of fact does not confer "legitimacy" on the use of a term (I put the word in quotes because it's not used by legitimists of any sort, so I can't see why it possibly matters), and we shouldn't be looking for a way to change it to reflect an editor's point of view. Scolaire (talk) 10:02, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Still erroneous
[edit]I suppose I can't really complain about reversion of my bold edit, but I still believe that we have a duty to our readers to make it clear that this usage in respect of Ireland (state) is unambiguously wrong. Accepting that my change didn't find favour, is there another way to achieve the same effect? --Red King (talk)
- It's not unambiguously wrong! It's a phrase that's used, that's all. Ireland is partitioned between north and south. The northern state is officially called Northern Ireland. Nobody in the history of the state has said that Northern Ireland's name is "unambiguously wrong" because parts of the Republic lie to the west and to the north of it. It's what it's called, everybody (except hardcore republicans) accepts it and nobody seems to be bothered by it. The part of Ireland that's not Northern Ireland is – understandably – called "Southern Ireland" by some. For some reason, this causes some people to grow red in the face and start jabbing their fingers at a map. Those few people aren't right and the rest of the world wrong. We no more have "a duty to our readers to make it clear that this usage is unambiguously wrong" than we have duty to our readers to make it clear that "me and Jimmy" or "one person less" is hideous grammar. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. A disambiguation page entry should have enough information to let the reader know why it's there, and no more. Scolaire (talk) 13:09, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- The challenge is not to Northern Ireland: that is its name de jure (and de facto) and no reasonable person challenges it. None of these are true in respect of the term Southern Ireland after 1922. You say (correctly) A disambiguation page entry should have enough information to let the reader know why it's there. So why is it there? Do we show malapropisms and other misnomers without any explanation? See Wrack/rack, for example. Yes, of course it should be listed given its usage in the UK press – but it needs to be qualified: the founding principle of an encyclopaedia is explain and illuminate, not to mislead and misdirect. Within the terms of wp:disambiguation, how about putting it under "See also"? In the absence of a citation at the related topic in talk:Republic of Ireland, I accept that this is as far as it can go. --Red King (talk) 14:58, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
- You say that no reasonable person objects to calling the northern state "Northern Ireland", but somehow you can't see the logic of calling the rest of the country "Southern Ireland". That kind of blinkered vision is your problem, not the problem of the many people who use the term. You know there was a discussion at Talk:Republic of Ireland, because you started it. You know that the fact that "Southern Ireland" is used to refer to the state is in the Republic of Ireland article, with a citation, because you quoted the sentence and the citation. You know about the lengthy discussions that went on there years ago, where nobody ever provided a source for the contention that the term is considered wrong, because I linked you to them. And you ought to know, if you stopped being self-righteous for a minute, that nobody has ever made a fuss about it in the real world. The "founding principle of an encyclopaedia" is to inform people about the real world, not to provide a platform for people to sound off about their own pet aversions. Now, many, many people – and I'm talking Americans, Australians, Africans, not just the "UK press" – will have heard of "Southern Ireland", and will type it into the search box looking for an article on the Irish State. That's why it's on the dab page, in the place it's in, with exactly enough information to direct them to the correct article, and no preaching from some self-elected spokesman for the Irish nation. What's on the page now is a consensus version that has stayed remarkably stable over the five years of its existence. You have provided no good reason to change it. Scolaire (talk) 14:52, 8 December 2019 (UTC)