Talk:South ParQ Vaccination Special

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Season 24 or not?

The amount of secondary sources which state that this and the previous episode are standalone does outnumber the amount of secondary sources that state that they're part of season 24. However, the one primary source that calls it a "special event" does not use the word "standalone" and does not explicitly confirm that this is not part of season 24. I'm almost willing to call its use in the article synthesis of published material for claiming something that isn't directly stated in the source. Meanwhile, the one primary source that lists this and the previous episode as season 24 are very clear about it. It should be noted that calling an episode a special event does not mean it is not part of any season. Secondary sources are good for confirming notability, but at the end of the day primary sources are more reliable for info. Given that one primary source directly lists them as season 24 and the other primary source never directly states that this episode is standalone, should this and the previous episode be considered season 24 here, while keeping the secondary sources that call it a standalone special to note that there is confusion? Unnamed anon (talk) 19:38, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

In a word, no. It doesn't matter if the sources are primary, secondary, or otherwise, the fact stands that there is still dispute/confusion as to whether this is part of a new season or not. There has already been multiple discussions about this. The fact of the matter is that EVERY SINGLE PREVIOUS SEASON of South Park has had an official press release announcement stating something to the effect of "season xx begins on date". There has been no such release yet. Best to leave things as is. - SanAnMan (talk) 22:17, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

SanAnMan, it seems like your basis for leaving the ambiguity is from the lack of a prior announcement, which is fair for that time. However, HBO Max has now changed The Pandemic Special from being listed separately to season 24 (Vaccination Special is not on HBO max yet, I will check later today), in addition to the Comedy Central website listing both episodes as season 24. It should be noted that it's possible for a tv show to start airing a season without any prior announcement, so the lack of a prior announcement does not discredit the info that is given by the publishers afterwards. As for the news and blogs stating these episodes as standalone, WP:CONTEXTMATTERS states hat Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable. I will be changing the episodes' pages and the South Park episodes list to list the two specials as season 24 based on all primary publishers now giving the same info after previously giving conflicting info, while leaving the secondary sources to acknowledge the initial conflicting information, and if you still feel like there is not enough confirmation, I may open an RFC to let third party users analyze the sources and give their input. Unnamed anon (talk) 21:16, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Unnamed anon Feel free to open another RFC. The last one had a consensus to leave things the way that they are. Do not change the episodes without consensus. - SanAnMan (talk) 21:30, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Understood. While you were writing that message, I did change them, but you can revert them until there is a consensus. Unnamed anon (talk) 21:35, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

RFC on whether this and the previous episode can be considered part of season 24

Secondary sources conflict on whether this and the previous episode are considered part of season 24 or standalone specials. A higher number of secondary sources state that the two episodes are standalone, and prior announcements did not mention season 24, but primary publishers (HBO Max and the Comedy Central website) directly list the two episodes as season 24. Which claim can be considered correct? Unnamed anon (talk) 21:44, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Unnamed anon Also reference Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/South_Park_(season_24) for the discussion regarding the creation of a Season 24 article, which discussed the whole debate as to whether or not these specials should be considered Season 24 or not. - SanAnMan (talk) 21:48, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for linking me to another part of the debate. From what I can tell, the consensus to not have the season 24 article was due to only one primary source claiming that The Pandemic Special was the season 24 premiere, and said primary source was prone to errors, making the redirect justified for the time. The Pandemic Special used to be separate from the rest of the show on HBO Max, but recently it has been merged with the rest of the series as season 24. If HBO Max is to be considered a secondary publisher of the work, that is likely the information that could override the previous consensus. I'll ping QuestFour, SNUGGUMS, Grapesoda22, Spiderpig662, Koavf, GhostDestroyer100, Nil Einne, ProcrastinatingReader, Chipmunkdavis, IvanVector, Nightscream, and WolfmanFP, who all took part in previous debates on this matter to see what they think of the new information. Unnamed anon (talk) 23:24, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Not sure at the moment. Have Matt and/or Trey said anything on the matter? SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 23:30, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I can't find any statements from Matt or Trey, though it seems like all direct availabilities to view the episodes state that they are season 24. Unnamed anon (talk) 00:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I was flipping through channels last night and came across it, and noticed that in the episode information at the bottom of the screen, it was indicated to be "(S24 E2)". Nightscream (talk) 23:59, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

That brings us to three (and I believe all) publishers directly stating that the episodes are part of season 24 now. Unnamed anon (talk) 00:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards declaring these specials as part of the 24th season. Mainly because virtually all streaming/purchase services offering them, including the show's official website, list them as season 24 episodes. For the time being I think we should just leave the pages as they are now. The show has already been renewed through season 26 in 2019, before the pandemic. I think it is likely that eventually the show will return to its standard 10 half-hour episodes a season format and at that point we would get plenty of press solidifying the true season number. We could also these specials and other potential episodes/specials packaged as on a "Season 24" DVD, which would also be solidifying. It's all kinda up in the air right now. Like I said, for the time being lets just leave it alone until we get more hard evidence. Grapesoda22 (talk) 04:19, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

@Grapesoda22: You begin your comment with "I'm leaning towards declaring these specials as part of the 24th season" by agreeing that all services offering these specials list them as season 24, but then spend the rest of the comment saying we should wait? I'm not sure I understand what your viewpoint is or why we should wait. I was skeptical when the only South Park special was The Pandemic Special, but the fact that one service (HBO Max) initially listed that episode separately only to eventually merge it with the rest of the series as season 24 is enough evidence for me. The fact that the listing changed when Vaccination Special was released means that at least one source that claimed it was standalone has accepted that it is season 24. Another user mentioned that cable tv also lists it as season 24, giving us a solid three primary sources, which may override the lack of a prior announcement of the season that another user mentioned. The only sources contesting that claim are all unrelated to the principal topics, which, according to WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, is not guaranteed to be correct. Is there any particular reason to wait other than said non-publisher sources and the lack of a prior announcement despite the presence of clear information from multiple publishers? Unnamed anon (talk) 08:21, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

@Unnamed anon: Let's assume you're correct, and that the specials are the beginning of a yet-to-be-officially-announced Season 24. So we go about changing all of the various pages (and there's a bunch) to reflect these changes. Assuming you're correct, then everything is hunky-dory and we all go on our merry ways. But let's assume you're not correct. Your rush to change everything now would result in all of those various pages having to go back and be re-edited a second time, and there's a decent chance that something could get skipped or missed. But if we leave things be for the time being and wait until we get a firm confirmation that these specials are or are not part of a new season, then we only have to make one set of changes period. I agree with Grapesoda22 that there is a possibility that these specials may eventually be considered one way or another part of S24. But the possibility still exists that they aren't. I just don't see the logic in a rush to judgment to state that these are S24 without having a bona-fide direct statement from Comedy Central, South Park, or Trey/Matt that says so one way or the other. And I'm sorry, but a couple of television listings just don't cut it for me. To me, there's no harm whatsoever in being patient and waiting. In addition, if these were the beginning of a new season, wouldn't a new season imply to some degree a regular schedule of new episodes? It was almost six months between these last two specials. I don't consider that being any kind of a regular season whatsoever (IMO). And as of now, there is no schedule of new episodes nor even anything about when the next episode will air. We're still in the middle of strange and unusual times here; in my opinion, I think it's best to wait and see what comes out in the end. - SanAnMan (talk) 15:12, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

@SanAnMan:, I can understand that you want to be cautious, but I feel like the information has been pretty clear ever since Vaccination Special was announced. If this truly wasn't season 24, then the tv listings would have listed Vaccination Special as season 25, and HBO Max outright changing their listing seals the deal for me. As for the time gap, I'd like to direct you once again to The Rickshank Redemption, which aired unannounced months before any footage of the rest of the season even started to be advertised, and to my knowledge there was nobody debating that it wasn't part of season 3, as the tv listing showed its season number even without an official announcement. Sure, this airing schedule is unusual for South Park, but it's been done before. There is actually some harm in giving incomplete information when all reliable primary sources have a consensus already, as this may cause other secondary sources to continue giving mistaken information. The ambiguity was understandable for The Pandemic Special and leading up to Vaccination Special, but continuing with the ambiguity may lead to other secondary sources losing their reliability if they keep making mistakes. Unnamed anon (talk) 21:57, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

@Unnamed anon:To clarify, I was stating my educated guess that these specials are part of the 24th season and providing my main reasons for reaching that conclusion. If I had to bet on the matter I would say these are season 24 episodes but that's not to say I'm 100% convinced on the matter. I believe in the meantime we should put a pin in this discussion until more South Park content arrives and/or more sources arrive to put better clarification on the matter. Simply not specifying any season numbers in the articles and leaving in the mentions of the conflicting sources is preferable to declaring a season number that may be incorrect. Grapesoda22 (talk) 03:32, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

This is really just non-binary. Tacking specials onto specific seasons is something broadcasters do, but it isn't necessarily organic, and may just have to do with promotional convenience in the DVR listing. If the upcoming seasons continues off of the specials, then they will be "cemented" as season 24. If not, future bundling might change.--Droid I am (talk) 07:05, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

On HBO Max, The Pandemic Special was originally listed separately from the rest of the show, then was merged into the rest of the show as the season 24 premiere when Vaccination Special aired. However, Vaccination Special is now listed separately, so I'm withdrawing this rfc for now. What GrapeSoda did on the episodes page satisfies me. Unnamed anon (talk) 20:12, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

"Season 24" language compromise

I suggest we change the text to say: "Some sources, including Comedy Central's website,[1] list the specials as part of Season 24, while 'other reports suggest that the hour-long episodes are separate from the upcoming season'", using a quote from Screenrant.

SanAnMan, I believe this is an improvement because it mentions the primary source, and the phrase "other reports suggest" is sourced. (Comment continued from Talk:The Pandemic Special#Season premiere or standalone special?) Kolya Butternut (talk) 19:41, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kolya Butternut: The language in this article is nearly identical to the language in the previous special. It gives all sources equal weight, and it seems to be the preferred language used. - SanAnMan (talk) 20:43, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

• I am also proposing that we change the language in the previous special to my proposal.

• We don't know yet whether other users prefer the existing text over my proposal.

• We shouldn't give all sources equal weight; we should give the newest sources more weight, especially the primary sources, unless we have secondary sources which discuss the primary sources. Kolya Butternut (talk) 20:54, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

SanAnMan, are you ok with emphasizing the most recent sources? Kolya Butternut (talk) 10:03, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut It's not my article, no one owns an article. I've already explained my personal opinion on your change, but WP:BRD applies. - SanAnMan (talk) 13:37, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I see no problem with emphasizing the Comedy Central source, as ultimately the primary source is the most reliable source of information (for example, nobody in their right mind can call 9/11 or the George Floyd murder hoaxes because recordings exist as primary sources). Unnamed anon (talk) 21:31, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• Sounds sensible.--Droid I am (talk) 08:50, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

@SanAnMan: I believe Kolya Butternut was asking you as part of the compromise reached through discussion, which is part of how discussions should proceed in such matters of dispute. Nightscream (talk) 17:47, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

@Nightscream: And I responded that even though I personally didn’t like the change of the wording that BRD applies. He made his edit on this article and that was that; the only change I made to his edit here was to clarify where his quote in the article was from. Nowhere in Kolya’s comments did it state that he also wanted to remove other cites from The Pandemic Special, which I firmly disagree with. The cites he removed are all examples of the dispute in question and even have quotes in the cite to demonstrate. If you think OVERCITE applies there then let’s use the bullet list you suggested. But let’s also realize that the first article has existed with the multiple cites for almost 6 months with no OVERCITE claims. - SanAnMan (talk) 22:49, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Speaking only that final point, there is no time limit for editorial claims. Nightscream (talk) 23:11, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

There's no need for a bulleted list of citations when we have the Screenrant source now which states: "By some accounts, 'South ParQ Vaccination Special' is South Park season 24, episode 2 — although other reports suggest that the hour-long episodes are separate from the upcoming season."[2] This source is from last month, so OVERCITE claims wouldn't have been as strong six months ago. Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:54, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut My biggest issue with that is the statement from ScreenRant is extremely vague. What are the "some accounts" that suggest this? Are these reports from any type of credible sources? The ScreenRant article doesn't say. Without the additional cites, we have no way to prove definitively that there are other reliable sources that state the opposing view. That's my viewpoint on this. - SanAnMan (talk) 18:42, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

That's the best language that we have. We don't need more than two sources for each view, which the sentence now has. Kolya Butternut (talk) 20:30, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

:Kolya Butternut The ScreenRant cite clearly only mentions this special, it doesn't directly state anything about The Pandemic Special. Yes, I realize there's a degree of inference there, but it doesn't state anything directly about the first special. I'm fine with leaving this article as it is with the two refs each, and if you want to shorten The Pandemic Special, then I'm ok with using a bulleted list as Nightscream suggested. But since the ScreenRant cite is only about this special, I really don't think using it as a cite belongs on the first special. - SanAnMan (talk) 21:24, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Screenrant says, "the hour-long episodes", plural. Kolya Butternut (talk) 21:44, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Regardless, I think we are at an impasse. I’ve explained my views, you’ve expressed yours. And it doesn’t seem like either one of us wants to compromise. - SanAnMan (talk) 02:52, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

You just said that you're "fine with leaving this article as it is with the two refs each", so since Screenrant speaks to both specials, there doesn't seem to be an argument left for treating The Pandemic Special any differently. I would say that it is time for an RfC, but that seems silly when we will have more information when more episodes are released in the near future. Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:17, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Generally unreliable sources

We shouldn't be citing factual claims, such as statements about reactions of particular groups of persons, to unreliable sources, and particularly not sources expressly marked as generally unreliable in WP:RSP. Opinions from bad sources are not exempt from this in the wording of WP:RSOPINION - saying "but it's an opinion!" would not normally be acceptable as an excuse for otherwise-unacceptable sourcing.

If there is a claim of a serious reason for using such sourcing, a talk page WP:LOCALCONSENSUS may not be safe, and it would probably need a convincing argument on WP:RSN - David Gerard (talk) 23:00, 13 January 2024 (UTC)