Talk:Sorbonne University/Archive 1

Archive 1

Oldest thread

Kleuske is right, like regarding the University of Paris. "L’université Sorbonne Université" in the decree is only legal demand of precision, and to differ not with the University but with the Sorbonne building (calling in French "université Sorbonne" would have been confusing, so it was reversed, and then the decree had to specify its creating a university). But it obviously makes no sense in plain English. Even in French, actually. --213.174.99.136 (talk) 21:19, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Merci bien.... Kleuske (talk) 22:05, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Dear Misters.

If you can read French, please I invite you to have a look at the French version of this article and see that there is no mentioned to the "re-establishment" of the Sorbonne - this would only be possible if the other inheritors of the Sorbonne would also get together. --SirJamesMcBiscuit (talk) 15:30, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@Kleuske: here is the logo of the university: http://www.lanouvelleuniversite.fr/_contents-images/ametys-internal%253Asites/nouvelleuniv/ametys-internal%253Acontents/un-nouveau-logo-actualite/_metadata/illustration/image_max300x300/image%2520SU.jpg?objectId=defaultWebContent%3A%2F%2Fbe89cfba-5063-470a-8b00-8db1cce5641a I cannot upload it here since I am not a confirmed user.

Regarding the discussion here, Kleuske and the others fit with the sources, and the French version of Wikipedia is not a source.

--JeanBirkin (talk) 15:54, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm not a "mister" and I do not read French (easily), But OK. Kleuske (talk) 16:37, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

The Sorbonne University is not the re-establishment of the University of Paris. It is a fusion between only two of its inheritors. As SirJames stated, the university could only be considered a fusion if all the other 11 inheritors of the University of Paris would also merge in this union.

--Canyouhearmemajortom? (talk) 02:06, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

The sources are pretty clear. This is the "rebirth" of the Sorbonne and even the official logo is using the date 1257 of the royal charter of the university of Paris ! Yes, the Sorbonne changed a lot in its organisation since its foundation. For example, the university used to have colleges like Oxford and later, as a public institution, each faculty was independent and you didn't graduated from the university but from a faculty. In 2018 the university will be, again, reestablished under a new organisation, that's pretty much all. --RaphaelQS (talk) 03:08, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Like RaphaelQS said, the sources are clear. Inherit from something is not the same thing as being that something. 11 universities weree inheritors of the Sorbonne University, but 3 WERE its faculties, and now 1 IS the Sorbonne university. The other universities, except the law faculty, have been created FROM the Sorbonne University (ie by some of their professors), thus have inherited FROM it, but AREN’T it. --SummertimeinCrocodilopolis (talk) 11:04, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Who gets to decide which one is the one and which ones have come from it? You? The Editor of THE? Or the official websites of the universities concerned?

These official sources are crystal clear and should have more value than sensationalist pieces like the one from THE: .

Moreover, how can University Sorbonne-Univerisity can be the University of Paris if it does not even have the same name? It obviously comes from it, drinking from the same traditions, inasmuch as the other inheritors of the original University of Paris do. --Canyouhearmemajortom? (talk) 12:14, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

"University Sorbonne-Univerisity" what the hell are you even talking about. --RaphaelQS (talk) 13:09, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

There is no "official" history, and those website are not even saying something else than what is written in the WP article. --SummertimeinCrocodilopolis (talk) 17:22, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

References

By law, this university is a new one, different from the old ones

• Décret n° 2017-596 du 21 avril 2017 on the creation of "université Sorbonne Université"
• Décret n° 2017-1710 du 18 décembre 2017 "La création par le décret n° 2017-596 du 21 avril 2017 d'une nouvelle université « Sorbonne Université » issue de la fusion des universités Paris-IV et Paris-VI, effective le 1er janvier 2018"

The decrees are clear

Furthermore an other université de Paris is on the way, with the fusion of two other universities, Paris-V and Paris-VII[1][2].

Time to clean up this article. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 22:19, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

The other university's name has not been officially approved and no source is saying it the same as the historical University of Paris.

The sources are clear regarding Sorbonne university. Of course in some way it is new, but it is a "rebirth" as THE clearly says. --SummertimeinCrocodilopolis (talk) 09:03, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

One author, Jack Grove, is claiming somthing like that in the Times highereducation. It is nothing but a claim done a journalist. The title is a nice clickbait. But it's not a fact, just an opinion.

Just take a look at how the article is written in French. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 21:33, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Please also see the thing happened before this event in Bordeaux, Strasbourg. Their decrees (for merging) also clearly write "create the new universities" likes this one with Sorbonne university, but they all said their histories is back to 16th century.. Also the decrees to create university of Paris is also wrote new university in 19th century. Craeate a new unverisity is the also way to insert a new entity in French law of hig education list. Following this logic, the university of Paris also has no relation with the Sorbonne created in 12-13th century, because it is a new university.

The College of Sorbonne was only one of the 75 colleges of the medieval University of Paris.

It was a theological college. Only catholic learnings were taught there.

Hard to see any connection with this university, created in 2018. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 20:33, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

-- Dear anonymous user (perhaps Launebee?). If you are indeed new here and thus unfamiliar with this discussion, you can see that this has been extensively discussed here[[3]]. 



There you’ll find the elements to answer your question, but in a nutshell, as (as an aftermath of the events of 1968) the University of Paris was divided into 13 universities. Therefore, all of them have the same right to claim to have a strong link to the University of Paris (aka La Sorbonne). The union of two of these universities do not constitute its re-establishment, as such a thing would be possible just if all the thirteen inheritors of the old Sorbonne re-merged into a single university.

The latter is the case with the university that you used as an example. Universities of Strasbourg 1, 2 and 3 reunited, all the inheritors of the same sixteenth-century university are now, once more, part of a single institution of tertiary education, thus it can claim to be the original university. But this is just possible, and I repeat, as all the parts involved with its dissolution are once again one.



However, this is not the case with the University of Paris as only two of the thirteen universities merged into Sorbonne University. Moreover, other fusions between the inheritors of the University of Paris are to take place in the next few months. 

Therefore, as for today, the University of Paris still divided. All its inheritors are thus historically linked to it, but none of them can claim to be it as there are other “its”.

If you are not convinced by this argument, you should check what Sorbonne University itself says about the matter. In its website main page, the university states:



“[a] new university with a centuries-old tradition, through the merger of UPMC and Paris-Sorbonne on 1st January, 2018, bringing together Arts & Humanities, Medicine and Science & Engineering”.



From there you can navigate to other pages that give you a deeper look on how the university sees itself:

“The roots of Sorbonne University trace back to the medieval University of Paris. Founded in the mid-12th century, it quickly achieved the stature and prestige that have remained undiminished ever since. The Collège de la Sorbonne, officially founded in 1257, underwent a substantial overhaul in 1885, and then the May 1968 protests brought about the decision to divide the institution into 13 autonomous universities. Among these are Université Paris-Sorbonne and Université Pierre et Marie Curie, now reunited.”  

And:



 “A college that become the epicenter of knowledge: the history of Sorbonne University is closely linked to that of the creation of the French university”


And finally (at the bottom of the same page):



“the two institutions proposed to their communities to create a new merged university that would be multidisciplinary and world class: Sorbonne University. It was created on January 1, 2018”. 

If you are still not convinced, you can also listen to an interview with the very president of Sorbonne University where he clearly says that it is a new university that is historically (as the other 11 universities) linked to the old University of Paris..

I could go on with this for ages, but I sincerely think there is no need to. --SirJamesMcBiscuit (talk) 23:50, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

References

Reverting edits

As the users that defended the idea that Sorbonne University was the rebirth of the University of Paris were Sockpuppets Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Launebee/Archive of a user who was previously blocked from editing French Universities articles User_talk:Launebee#Topic_ban - and the user RaphaelQS finally agreeing with the fact that the former statement is not accurate - I am starting to revert the POV pushing edits.--SirJamesMcBiscuit (talk) 12:31, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

"Sorbonne University" is incorrect and ambiguous -- corrected to "Sorbonne-Université"

Hi. I made a major edit to the "Sorbonne University" page and renamed it to "Sorbonne-Université". Although it may be a bit incongruous to have a title in French in the English wikipedia, the previous title was incorrect and ambiguous. Indeed, there are at least three existing universities that have the name "Sorbonne" in their name.

The official name is "Sorbonne-Université" (with a dash, an acute accent on the final "e", and no final "s"). As the page explains, it results from the merger of several previous universities, notably Université Pierre et Marie Curie (itself previously Paris-6) and Université Paris-Sorbonne (itself previously Paris-4). The original universities previously formed a group of universities (COMUE in French) named "Sorbonne-Universités" (with a final "s", which is silent in French, so the two names sound identical). I tried to edit the text to be consistent with these facts, but I certainly overlooked some details. Feel free to fix my mistakes and omissions.

Ms.wiki.us (talk) 13:19, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Oppose, and advocate revert. It clearly says "Sorbonne University" throughout its English language website. Chicbyaccident (talk) 16:13, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Well, at least keep the discussion about the translated name being ambiguous. And also keep the distinction between the prior "Sorbonne-Universités" (with an "s") grouping, and the current "Sorbonne-Université" (without) merged university. Ms.wiki.us (talk) 16:49, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't agree, since there is no real WP:PRIMARYTOPIC competitor to the actual literal article name Sorbonne University. So still advocate revert (rather than having Sorbonne University redirect to Sorbonne-Université). Chicbyaccident (talk) 16:54, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

The official legal name is "Sorbonne-Université"; the other one is just a loose translation and has no official status (I wager the other universities will be very unhappy when they find out). I would suggest to stay on the safe side and stick to the legal name. And BTW, thanks for keeping my other edits and not reverting blindly. Ms.wiki.us (talk) 08:01, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not necessarly follow legal names, but established ones. And there is no competitor to Sorbonne University, the exact name, that is find in its English language media material. A revert is obviously called for by more users than me. Chicbyaccident (talk) 18:26, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Oppose, same as Chicbyaccident. Or we need to keep the original for all entities. --Plucksonic (talk) 09:43, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

I find this paragraph very puzzling

The Paris-Sorbonne University thus brings together mainly "right-wing" professors as opposed to Paris-I "Panthéon-Sorbonne", which is marked "left". This explains the divergent scientific orientations. To take the example of the history of societies, Paris-Sorbonne is thus illustrated by a historiography following the theses of Roland Mousnier, and always keeps a distance from the Marxist analysis of Boris Porchnev, which is more honoured at Paris-I Panthéon-Sorbonne.

I genuinely have no idea what this is trying to say. Approximately none of it makes any sense to me at all. Does anyone have any suggestions for improvement or clarification? TRiG (talk) 00:22, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

I also can't help wondering if those synchronized swimmers in the "famous alumni" section actually studied synchronized swimming at the Sorbonne. If so, they must've been remarkably synchronized. I mean, at a world level. I'm imagining they'd look almost like a single person. It would undoubtedly be some very sophisticated, worldly synchronization, perhaps in several languages. – AndyFielding (talk) 12:37, 7 March 2022 (UTC)