Talk:Sonny Pike

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Untitled

I wonder if the article is claiming too much: can anyone really assert that he would not have had a breakdown if he hadn't pursued the goal of becoming a professional footballer, or that his parents would still be happily married if their had had the same footballing talent as me? The articles cited are not as confident in claiming that as this article currently appears. Kevin McE (talk) 21:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chronology

There are numerous conflicting/contradictory sources about this person's career:

Goal.com - Enfield Colts at 6, Enfield at 10, trial at Ajax (possibly more permanent given he was there a long time, went to competitions in Denmark with them?), "although Ajax offered him a full-time place at their academy, Pike returned to England to join Leyton Orient", failed move to Chelsea, then played with QPR and then Crystal Palace (trial or permanent? not clear), joined Stevenage, quit at 18
The Guardian (2006) - joined Ajax at 7, later played for Dryburgh Saints in Dundee
The Guardian (2016) - his time in Denmark was while playing for 'East Anglia', spent 2 weeks at Ajax, then played for Leyton Orient, failed transfer to Chelsea, trialled at Crystal Palace, trial at Grimsby, never went to Dundee
WSC - Leyton Orient (signed), Ajax (training), Chelsea (training), later played non-league with Stevenage Borough, Barnet, Enfield, and Waltham Forest.

Thoughts? Giant Snowman 10:55, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My view is to follow what Goal.com and Guardian (2016) say for the early career - Enfield Colts at 6, Enfield at 10, trial at Ajax, returned to England to join Leyton Orient, failed move to Chelsea, then trialled with QPR and then Crystal Palace, joined Stevenage, quit at 18.

Then follow WSC for the non-league career - Barnet, Enfield, and Waltham Forest

Guardian (2006) should be disregarded.

Agreement? Giant Snowman 11:02, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is fair. However I have a couple of tweaks. The Guardian source states that Pike may not technically have signed with Orient at all, so I'm wary to put that on. If it does go on, the youthyears should only be 1996.(1) Also his time at Stevenage should be seen as youth, rather than senior in the infobox.

WSC makes some claims about his further, supposed non-league career. However, the Guardian source states "Pike disappeared from the radar after that and it is easy enough for urban myths to develop. He had supposedly been spotted under assumed identities at a number of non-league clubs; he had, according to one story, uprooted to Dundee to study psychology. None of it is true." I would say that his word in an interview was a better source than a "football magazine", and I would personally disregard the WSC source. Pike is saying himself that any reports of him playing non-league football are untrue. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 11:14, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I get the feeling we don't have an accurate timeline of when he was where, but also having viewed this article recently way too much of it has been cut or trimmed. Also, there's a [1] new recent Guardian article, and [2] supports GiantSnowman's timeline and adds a bit of information we didn't have before (including images of contemporary news articles, confirming Orient, and supporting the breakdown of the marriage.) It's still a bit too WP:PRIMARY for me, but there should be some way of tracking down news articles from the mid-90s, right? SportingFlyer T·C 14:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source 2 is just the Goal.com article on another site, and the recent Guardian article doesn't really add anything of substance to the article. I think this edit (minus the Waltham Forest and Dryburgh Saints info) is probably the most accurate we're going to get, given the sources provided. We can always ask Pike himself on Twitter for further details, @Sonnypike01Pike. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 15:12, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The new Guardian article adds excellent detail about his recent life. Are you going to restore the article to its not-stripped state? SportingFlyer T·C 15:18, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@SportingFlyer: I meant that it adds nothing of substance regarding the teams he played for, who he was trialing with, who he signed with, etc. It was GS that stripped the page down, I wanted to keep it at this, but he kept reverting it back to a version with incorrect data, and he eventually stripped it down as some kind of compromise. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 15:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@SportingFlyer: Yes, I stripped it, with the intention of restoring it once we had agreed on content! Giant Snowman 16:07, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Year of birth

I have put the year of birth as 1983:

The Goal.com reference has him as 35 on 18 March 2018. That gives a year of birth of 1982 or 1983.
The radio listings.co.uk reference has him as 12 on 14 January 1996. That gives a year of birth of 1983 or 1984.

Therefore his birthday must be 1983, with his birthday sometime between 14 January and 18 March? Does that sound right? Giant Snowman 16:24, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FreeBMD has no records for a Sonny Pike at all. A previous version of our article indicated that his real first name was Luke, and FreeBMD has a Luke Santino Pike born in London in December 1983 (Sonny could easily be short for Santino). That would mean the Goal.com article was wrong about his age, though...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:26, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A typo in the article and/or he had a birthday in between being inverviewed and the article being published? Giant Snowman 10:32, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"famously"

Goes against MOS:PUFF and does not appear in any of the references. Spike 'em (talk) 17:55, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

'Famous' is used by the WSC source, and it is what he is notable for. I think the wording is fine. Giant Snowman 17:57, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The WSC ref uses "famous" once, and not in regard to his trial with Ajax. It is puffery, as is his "tremendous" talent. Spike 'em (talk) 18:00, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Again, those are precisely the things he is notable for. A young English lad, on trial at Ajax, unrealised talent, who left the game at 18 without ever playing at first-team level. Giant Snowman 18:02, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

He may well be known for those things, but it is still unencyclopedic language and goes against the MOS. The article is better without it. Spike 'em (talk) 18:05, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No it's not unencyclopedic in this context, and the MOS allows for deviation. Giant Snowman 18:08, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How about saying something like "he received huge publicity when he went on trial at Ajax"......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:23, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'd go with "much" rather than "huge" but it definitely works better than "famously". Spike 'em (talk) 07:56, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is fine. Giant Snowman 10:32, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've edited the page to match this. Spike 'em (talk) 11:46, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]