Talk:Somerset/GA2

GA on hold

I've opted to do the GA review of this article, because I think it's an important UK article, as I'm certain you do as well.

I've only had a quick look at it so far, and I'll post my detailed comments later.

One thing I want to say straight away though is that the lists in the Settlements and communications and the Places of interest sections would be enough on their own to persuade me to fail this nomination. I would strongly encourage the editors to convert those sections to prose, by picking out a few notable examples and linking to the full list. --Malleus Fatuarum 04:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, here are my more detailed comments:

• The Etymology section starts off with the statement that "The name is pronounced as though spelled Summerset". What has that got to with the "etymology"? Place names don't have an etymology anyway, they have a toponymy.
• "Sumortūn is modern Somerton and may mean summer settlement, a farmstead tended during the summer but not occupied in winter." The reference given doesn't mention Somerton so far as I can see. It talks about Birdscombe. This section gives the impression that the whole of Somerset was a farmstead, inhabited only in the summer, whereas the references appear to be claiming that individual settlements in Somerset were perhaps occupied only in the summer. Which begs the question, where did the residents of those farmsteads go to in the winter? I think that Etymology section needs a bit of a rethink.
• "It was adopted in 1911, and is taken from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, where it is thought to have indicated the wholehearted support given to King Alfred in his struggle to save Wessex." Wessex is just thrown at the reader there. OK, I can see that there's a wikilink provided, but it would have been nice to have been told before-hand that Somerset was anciently a part of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Wessex, without having to follow the link to find out.
• "A few hill names include Brythonic elements ..." Again, the reader has to chase the link to find out what that means. Why not pipe it from the more accessible Celtic?
• "Going back into prehistory we can think that people named or identify the world with what they better knew." Several problems with this. First, personal pronouns like "we" should be avoided. Second, what is it trying to say? Why the link with the Eridu kings?
• "The Somerset Levels, and specifically the dry points such as Glastonbury and Brent Knoll, have a long history of settlement, and are known to have been settled by Mesolithic hunters, [7] with travel being aided by the world's oldest known engineered roadway, the Sweet Track." The reference given, #7, doesn't seem to mention Mesolithic hunters so far as I can see, and looks a bit dubious as to its reliability in any case. The claim that the Sweet Track is the world's oldest known engineered roadway needs to be referenced, particularly as the link from the Sweet Track article itself is broken.
• "The usefulness of the canals was short lived though they have now been resurrected for recreation." How do you "resurrect" a canal? Presumably that should say "restored".

*"The railways became nationalised after World War II and continued until 1965 when many branch lines were scrapped;" What has the nationalisation of the railways got to do with Somerset?

• "Taunton currently has Avimo, which became part of Thales Optics, although the Avimo site is under notice of closure." Is it still under notice of closure? Statements like will age, so better to say something like "... was under of notice of closure as at ...".
• "... to this day Somerset is linked to the production of strong cider, arguably more so than any other part of the world." Linked in what way? Who is it that argues "more so than any other part of the world"?
• "Attractions include its coastal towns, part of the Exmoor National Park, the West Somerset Railway (a heritage railway), and the museum of the Fleet Air Arm at RNAS Yeovilton. The town of Glastonbury is famous for its mythical associations, and open-air rock festival (actually in Pilton), while the Cheddar Gorge is famous for caves open to visitors, as well as its locally produced cheese, although there is now only one cheese maker remaining in the village of Cheddar." I think this material is misplaced in the Economy and Industry section.
• "Other impressive houses in the county ..." Impressive is POV.
• "Yeovil Town F.C. are the highest placed Football (soccer) team." Highest placed where? When?
• "Glastonbury was an important religious centre by 700 and claims to be " the oldest above-ground Christian church in the World" ..." That's presumably a quote, and so needs to be attributed. The reference given at the end of the sentence doesn't seem to make that claim.
• Why is there no Education section? Is Somerset not an LEA?
• "In summer ...a large proportion of rainfall falls from showers and thunderstorms ...". I expect that it does, where else would it come from?
• "... whilst there is no official recording, it is believed that Romany Gypsies are a significant ethnic minority ...". Who believes that?
• "Below are the average maximum and minimum temperatures, and average rainfall recorded between 1971 and 2000 at the Met Office weather station in Yeovilton." An objection to this kind of thing was raised at the previous GA nomination I notice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Malleus Fatuarum (talk • contribs) 01:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

This isn't necessarily a comprehensive list of what I think needs working on before this article can be listed as a GA, it's just what jumped out at me on my first detailed reading of the article. There are quite a few Manual of Style problems as well, mainly easy ones to fix, and the article is badly in need of a good copyedit to sharpen up the prose. I'll help with those last two issues as much as I can.

I think there's quite a bit of work needing to be done on this article, but not an impossible amount, and so I'm placing it on hold for seven days.

--Malleus Fatuarum 01:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Response Thank you for the helpful comments - we have addressed many of them as shown above. The bit about the origin of the name is complex - a couple of the local history books I've checked say "unclear", "difficult to be certain" etc & blame the lack of detail on the "dark ages". In relation to the other unaddressed comment about "attractions", I think this is illustrating the importance of tourism & therefore does fit in Economy and Industry. I would welcome any further improvements or comments.— Rod ^talk 17:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Summary

There's an awful lot of good work been done on this article in the last couple of days, well done to all the editors. In view of that I thought it would be helpful for me to go through the article again and to summarise what work I think remains to be done:

• From the Human occupation section: "The caves of the Mendip Hills ...contain ... sites such as the caves of Cheddar Gorge".
• "The first known use of the name Somersæte was in 845 after the region fell to the Saxons." This seems like it ought to be in the Toponymy section, not the Human occupation section.
• "Wellington gave its name to the first Duke of Wellington ...". Wouldn't it be more correct to say that the Duke took his name from Wellington?
• "The Somerset coalfield was an important industry in north Somerset ..". The coalfield isn't an industry, it's mining that's the industry.
• "... the Somerset Coal Canal was built from 1800 onwards". That's a bit vague. Is it still being built today?
• ""... part of which was later converted into a railway". Railway track I suppose that means?
• "However, farming continued to flourish, with the Bath and West of England Society for the Encouragement of Agriculture, Arts, Manufactures and Commerce being founded in 1777 to improve methods. John Billingsley conducted a survey of the county's agriculture in 1795 but found that methods could still be improved." Are those two ideas meant to be linked in any way? Does the fact that Billingsley found that there was room for improvement have anything to to with the establishment of the Bath and West of England Society for instance?
• "76 square miles (197 km²) of the central and western Mendip Hills was designated an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty". Sentences ought not to start with numbers. Should either be rewritten to avoid it, or start off "Seventy-six ...".
• "The main coastal towns of today are ..." Seems a bit awkward. What were they yesterday? What will they be tomorrow?
• "Street developed a centre for the production of woollen slippers ...". Should that say "Street developed as a centre ..."?
• "Development amongst the milk based industries ..". Using the word "amogst" implies that there was some kind of collaboration between these milk-based industries. is that what's meant?
• "The town of Glastonbury is famous for its mythical associations, and open-air rock festival (actually in Pilton), while the Cheddar Gorge is famous for caves open to visitors". I'm never happy about claims to be "famous", seems to be verging on POV.
• "It has now been confirmed that the government has rejected the proposals for unitary authorities in Somerset, and that the present two-tier arrangements of Somerset County Council and the district councils will remain." When was that confirmed? Would be nice to have a reference for that as well.
• I notice that there's a discrepancy between the infobox's presentation of metric/imperial and the article's presentation of imperial/metric. If that's down to a "feature" of the infobox being used, then I'll just to live with that.
• There's still the issue that was brought up at the last GA review to be addressed. I quote from what said before: "To ease reusability, never allow the text of an article to assume that the reader is viewing it at Wikipedia, and try to avoid even assuming that the reader is viewing the article at a website". So a statement like this needs to be corrected: "Below are the average maximum and minimum temperatures ..." How do you know where the table is? I'd suggest folding that sentence up into the table header, so as not to make any assumption about how the reader is viewing the article.

And that's probably about it. The article has improved in leaps and bounds over the last few days, and just needs that final polish before it's listed as a GA I think.

--Malleus Fatuarum 19:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible also that the "motto" at the top right hand corner (infobox) could be moved to alongside the council coat of arms? The rationale being that the motto pertains, in the most strictest sense, to the county council, rather than the division of land. -- Jza84 · (talk) 10:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I've left a message asking about the placement of the motto & metric v imperial units on Template talk:Infobox England county as I can't work out how to change these.— Rod ^talk 10:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Update 2

This is fast becoming a really good article, but the addition of so much new material is making this review more demanding than normal. One of the criteria for a GA pass is that the article is stable. So may I suggest that until the review is complete no further new material is added, unless it specifically addresses an issue raised in the review? My fear is that otherwise we'll keep going around in circles; I've already got another list of things that I think need to be addressed before I can list this article as a GA.

I suggest that you let me know when you think that you've got a stable version of this article, and we'll go from there. --Malleus Fatuarum 13:57, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Malleus Fatuarum for your advice, support and contributions to date. In resolving the problems that you have highlighted above, we are tending to look at it critically in the manner that we presume you are using. Doing that, tends to highlight missing information, poor grammar and unasked questions; which we are addressing. I agreed that this could make your review harder; however I would like to think that (almost) everything added is correctly referenced. I have a 15,000 word dissertation to produce, proof read and have bound before Christmas, so I will not adding to the article. Pyrotec 19:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

We all have our crosses to bear. I've got a course to write and deliver before Xmas, plus one paper. So let's not make life more difficult for each other, eh? Freeze the article so that it can be properly reviewed. --Malleus Fatuarum 19:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Final update before GA

Hopefully these are the last issues that need to be addressed before this article can be listed as a GA:

• The last sentence in the Settlements and communications section just seems to have been plopped on the end a propos of nothing that went before. "Norton Radstock is a conurbation made up from Midsomer Norton and Radstock." Yes, but so what?
• "The Somerset LEA also provides a number of special schools such as Farleigh College, to cater for children aged between two and nineteen ..." Is nineteen correct?

*I've tried to copyedit the last paragraph of the Human occupation section, but I had to admit defeat, as I don't entirely understand what it's trying to say, particularly about the A303. "Somerset is crossed north-south by the M5 Motorway, used by holiday traffic travelling through the county to and from Devon and Cornwall. The M4 Motorway runs east-west, beyond the northern limits of the county, and to the west by the A303 road."

• "They consist of marine clay "levels" along the coast, and the inland (often peat based) "moors". Why are both "levels" and "moors" in quotes? Seems to imply that they're not real levels and moors. It signifies that the inland areas, moors are (still) generally below sea level. The levels were also below sea level, but they are now above, or just above sea level. They have been raised by the deposition of clays over the centuries by a combination of natural processes and the action of man reclaiming them. See, for example, Rippon (1997). Pyrotec 22:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

A god explanation & perhaps could be reworded to say that - I just removed the "quote" marks.— Rod ^talk 22:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

*"... although in 2007 notice of cessation of manufacturing at the Avimo site was announced" Does that mean that the closure of the site was announced? *"Dr. Martens shoes were also made in Somerset, by the Northampton-based R. Griggs Group; this work has also been transferred to Asia." Also? What other work was transferred to Asia? *"Puriton up to the 1960s had Blue Lias stone quarries, as did several other Polden Villages; and a cement factory at Dunball adjacent to the King's Sedgemoor Drain." Is this saying that the cement factory in Dunball was in Puriton? I think that the semi-colon is confusing me.

• "... has resulted in the production of vast ranges of desserts". I'm dubious about using the word "vast".
• "The town of Glastonbury has mythical associations, and an open-air rock festival ..." An annual festival? Not everyone may have heard of it.
• "This is a chart of trend of regional gross value added of the non-metropolitan county of Somerset at current basic prices with figures in millions of British Pounds Sterling." As with the other table, this ought to be wrapped up in the table header.
• "The age of the henge monument at Stanton Drew stone circles is not known, but they are believed to be Neolithic." A reference for that would be nice.

And that's about it I think. Once those issues are addressed I'll be happy to give this article a well-deserved GA listing.

--Malleus Fatuarum 20:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

M5 & A303 was added to Human occupation section as a logical progression, i.e. canal, railways, motorways. Now reworked.Pyrotec 21:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I've reworked Avimo, but we probably need a reference or two to satisfy GA. Could someone find a Western Daily Press or other media sources?Pyrotec 21:49, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I've searched for any news reports re Avimo & can't find any - if we can't verify/source this can we just remove that sentance?— Rod ^talk 22:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, thats because it is under Thales Optics, in 2006, - [1] & [2]. I've just got use to using the old name.Pyrotec 22:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Re worked Norton Radstock by reversing the order. I believe the Stoke on Trent is a City of six towns, we have a conurbation of two - let's tell people.Pyrotec 22:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

You're probably beginning to hate me now, but here goes anyway: "the work was transferred to lower-wage areas, such as China and Asia. Instead, in 1993, redundant factory buildings were converted to form Clarks Village". Did Clarks really tranfer their production to the far east in 1933? I find that difficult to believe. --Malleus Fatuarum 22:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC) Sorry, I misread that, been a long day. --Malleus Fatuarum 22:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's a BBC reference for the Far East [3]. Thanks for all your editing. Must go back to my cross now only another 13,000 words to go.Pyrotec 22:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm ready to pass this article now, just as soon as someone can explain to me what " at current basic prices" means in the table at the end of the Economy and industry section, or change it to something that anyone might understand. --Malleus Fatuarum 23:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The tables of economic data were added to lots of articles by an economist (I presume) & I've not tried to work out what it mean before. The office of national statistics says "Data for the years 2005 and 2006 are being published as experimental statistics. Earlier estimates of current price GVA data are estimated by balancing Input Output supply use tables, drawing on survey data from ONS's Annual business Inquiry (ABI). The current price estimates for 2005 and 2006, which are based on short-term indicators, are less firm. Revisions to the early estimates of GVA over recent years indicate that the approach is not ideal. ONS is currently reviewing and improving the methods used to produce these estimates, and while this programme is continuing Blue Book table 2.3 has been withdrawn and current price estimates are published on the experimental area of the National Statistics website instead." on [4] but I'm really none the wiser. I was hoping to get this to GA today as it's my 3rd wikibirthday (yep I made my first edit on 29th Oct 2004) but I don't think I can get my head any further around stats & economics tonight so I will look at it again another day. Thanks for all your help so far.— Rod ^talk 23:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

That's not a sticking point for me. Overall the article looks great now I think, and it's a credit to all of the editors who have put so much effort into it. I'm more than happy to list it as a GA now. Happy wikipedia birthday. :) --Malleus Fatuarum 23:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - if it had been a problem I was going to suggest the OECD definitions document word doc as light reading. But I'd like to thank you (again) for all your help and support in getting this to GA & making it a much better article.— Rod ^talk 23:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC)