Talk:Somaliland War of Independence

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'South African' pilots photo

The photo of purported 'South African' pilots is in fact of Royal Air Force servicemen. This is the original source, and I would recommend reading the full thread here. I've had to make mention of this on the three other pages with this photo as well. UncleBourbon (talk) 11:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

On a somewhat similar note, the infobox lists South Africa (i.e. the government) as supporting Somalia in the coup. However, the article only mentions South African mercenaries rather than government involvement. Would be interested to hear how South African government support came about, if true, otherwise I think it should be removed from the infobox. ITBF (talk) 00:55, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

The purpose of the infobox is to serve as a summary of whatever (sourced) information can be found elaborated in the article body. If there is no mention of South Africa's official involvement in the conflict, I agree that it should be removed, at least until someone comes up with more information about this. Timbouctou (talk) 06:03, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Many many thanks UncleBourbon for your sleuthing. The photograph if I interpret the whole thread correctly at https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/538372-global-aviation-magazine-60-years-hercules-87.html was taken during Operation Vigour ([1]), a series of relief flights by the Royal Air Force Lyneham wing of C-130 Hercules aircraft operating from Nairobi in 1992. Buckshot06 (talk) 20:08, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Foreign support to Barre government

The first edit was left blank and gave no reason as for the removals and the second, even larger edit is unclear what issue multiple of the different citations have. 92.236.211.53 (talk) 13:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@Buckshot06 ? The US was a supporter of the Siad Barre government under the Reagan administration they gave Somalia over 100 million dollars worth of military equipment per year. Not Libya or the UAE, the only Arab states who provided military aid to Somalia was Saudi Arabia and Egypt during the Ogaden War, the Somali government even accused Libya of supporting SSDF rebels and did not restore relations with them until 1985.[2] Socialwave597 (talk) 06:03, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

copied to Talk:Somaliland War of Independence Buckshot06 (talk) 07:15, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Not sure they wanted near genocide in the North, though. But yes that's justified. My apologies on that. But are you aware of this?

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/01/19/Somalia-denies-it-obtained-chemical-weapons-from-Libya/6600601189200/ ..and why are you deleting Libya? Buckshot06 (talk) 07:20, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Has Libyan support been confirmed by any reliable secondary source? Contemporary reports are a primary source. So far we have a source that states that Libya allegedly supported the rebels. Socialwave597 (talk) 07:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Country Study, Metz, 1993, 213-4, reports the allegation of poison gas deliveries but is absolutely clear that Libya supplied arms and ammunition to the Government. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:03, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

@Buckshot06 Ok but will you have any problems if I removed "Individual South African mercenaries" from the infobox? Not denying their involvement but I don't think they should be added as mercenaries played an important role in the Congo Crisis and the Nigerian Civil War but they are not added into their infoboxes. Socialwave597 (talk) 09:12, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Tell you what, can you go and read 213 in the Country Study and tell me what you think - extensive discussion of SA support to Somalia. Buckshot06 (talk) 10:35, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I copied this into Somali Air Force: "The Library of Congress Country Studies wrote in 1992-93 that: "..there [were] numerous unconfirmed reports of Somali-South African military cooperation. The relationship supposedly began on December 18, 1984, when South African Foreign Minister Pik Botha visited Somalia to hold discussions with Barre. The two leaders reportedly signed a secret communiqué granting South African Airways landing rights in Somalia and the South African Navy access to the ports of Kismayo and Berbera. It was said that Somalia also agreed to sell South Africa eight MiG-21 fighters. In exchange, South Africa supposedly arranged to ship spare parts and ammunition for Hawker Hunter fighter aircraft that the United Arab Emirates had supplied to Somalia, and to cover the salaries of ten former Rhodesian Air Force pilots already in Somalia helping to train Somali pilots and technicians and flying combat missions in the north." Buckshot06 (talk) 10:37, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I added South Africa into the infobox. Socialwave597 (talk) 10:40, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Same section!! Hawker Hunter fighter-attack aircraft from the UAE!! Buckshot06 (talk) 10:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I added two further sources for United States support; one of these (Copson) confirms Saudi support even in 1991, so I added them as well. I also added dates for support from the United States and Libya so as not to give the false impression that they were supporting Barre at the same time. Lastly, I removed the UAE, since the Hawker Hunters all seem to have been sent before 1981; Hawker Hunter 1951 to 2007 by David J. Griffin lists 7 Hawker Hunters provided by the UAE to Somalia, all in the period of 1970-'71. The Country That Does Not Exist by Gérard Prunier mentions Somalia received 8 aircraft from the UAE "after [...] 1978", however his citation is merely a note saying the planes had been in service with the UAE for "nearly ten years" and doesn't offer a specific date. I think they could be re-added if confirmation can be found of them providing aircraft after 6 April 1981. UncleBourbon (talk) 21:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks UncleBourbon. Better data from high-quality reliable sources always supersedes everything!! But, and this is the remaining puzzle, the UAE is never listed as operating Hunters! Buckshot06 (talk) 19:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

This is an additional source: http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/somalihuntersmt_1.htm. UK to Abu Dhabi Air Force, then onward, to Oman? Transfer date to Somalia recorded as 1983. Needs further cross-checking. Buckshot06 (talk) 20:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

References