Talk:Somali aristocratic and court titles

Spellings of titles

Are the Somali spellings necessary? It's seems weird having them since that's not how it's pronounced or spelled the same in English. AcidSnow (talk) 20:04, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The English spelling is ok. Middayexpress (talk) 14:56, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Sheikh Ali Ayanle Samatar.jpg

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Sultan Abdillahi Deria of the Eidagalla.jpg

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Sultan applicable?

Jacob300, are you saying the term sultan is inapplicable to the Dhulbahante clan? Heesxiisolehh (talk) 12:56, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of Deria Gure

Hello @Heesxiisolehh:,

I removed what you put in in regards to this "Diiriye Guure" since not only was most of the content off-topic, but none of your citations actually directly state that Diiriye was a sultan to begin with, let alone the sultan of either the Dhulbahante clan or the Dervish state. One citation in particular seems to be a letter from Mohammed Abdullah Hassan where he mentions that the Dervishes have a sultan and an amir, however that same citation fails to mention Diiriye by name. Using that citation is akin to original research since per WP:VERIFY, it needs to be verifiable (i.e if I were to read the actual citation, the citation would back up the statement by explicitly stating that Diiriye was indeed a sultan of the Dervishes).

Could you perhaps elaborate more on this Diiriye Guure? I checked the wiki article and the majority of citations fail to prove that he was nothing more than a senior member (if at all) of the Dervish movement.

Many thanks, Dabaqabad (talk) 21:08, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Evening Express source by Walter Alfred Pearce states that Deria Gure is the "head of the" Dhulbahante clan. It doesn't get more explicit than that. I will highlight this in quotes if that makes you more confortable. As for direct mentions, the letter doesn't directly mention James Sadler either, but we know its directed at Sadler as it used the nomenclature "ruler of Berbera". Heesxiisolehh (talk) 19:52, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the The scramble in the Horn of Africa. History of Somalia (1827-1977) citation Deria Gure is not only unmentioned but is also not mentioned in the book at all. Taariikhdii daraawiishta only gives him a passing mention (without any context), putting him in a list along with other senior Dervish leaders. The Official History of the Operations in Somaliland, 1901-04 likewise only gives him a passing mention (and does not elaborate on who he is, let alone mentioning he is a sultan). The fourth Welsh source does give him a passing mention as well (albeit with a different spelling) and notes that his rank corresponds to "our commanding Royal Engineer".

It seems that you have stitched together several reliable and unreliable sources that either do not mention him at all or give him a passing mention but do not mention him being a "sultan" on par with Mohammed Abdullah Hassan. This is a clear example of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. I suggest that you read the guidelines surrounding these and do some more research before editing just to make sure what you're adding is reliable and verifiable.

And no, we do not know who it is directed to. Sources need to directly mention the person in question, and per WP:VERIFY the content needs to be directly supported by the source. Using a reliable source to add unrelated content on the same topic is not acceptable. Dabaqabad (talk) 20:15, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Does the Welsh source describe Diiriye Guure as the head of the Dhulbahante clan? Heesxiisolehh (talk) 20:19, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is Deria Gure's entry: "The third leader is Deeria Goori, of the Dolba- hanta tribe, who was badly wounded at the Battle of Gunrburru. He holds a position corresponding to our commanding Royal Engineer."

No mention on him being the head of the Dhulbahante clan, or him being a head of anything for that matter. I'll be taking a look at the Diiriye Guure article soon and look through to see if there are any faults there as well, because judging by what I have seen so far that article is likely to be filled with OR. Dabaqabad (talk) 20:25, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What about the part " These men are the heads of their respective tribes" ? Heesxiisolehh (talk) 20:47, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That sentence is very vague; does it mean they're the head of their tribes or the tribesmen in the movement? Or does it mean that they are heads within the tribe? We will never know. The point is that nowhere is Diiriye Guure mentioned as a sultan or as anything more than a "head of" the clan (how vague that may be). Adding something that is not mentioned by the source is original research. Dabaqabad (talk) 21:02, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

An objective observer would state there is nothing vague about mentioning the name Diiriye Guure, then stating "he's the head of his respective tribe". Heesxiisolehh (talk) 21:34, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Again, the source is vague and does not elaborate on who he exactly is.

To quote WP:VERIFY; "The only way you can show your edit is not original research is to cite a reliable published source that contains the same material. Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context, or to reach or imply a conclusion not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research"

Using these sources to then come to the conclusion that Diiriye Guure was this powerful "sultan" who resisted the British and can be credited for Mohammed Abdullah Hassan's actions is preposterous and is clearly original research and a textbook example of WP:SYNTH. I advise you once again to read up on the guidelines so you can learn what is and is not allowed in regards to handling sources.

I checked the Diiriye Guure page and honestly I very much doubt he is mentioned in most of the cited sources at all. Dabaqabad (talk) 21:48, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Even if Guure is not mentioned as head of Dhulbahante in the Welsh source (which he is), that was only about 500 bytes of the content you removed, which leaves 1260 bytes of content unaccounted or its removal therefore an unexplained removal, as you've repeated across several articles. Repeatedly arguing against a fraction of the content then proceeding to remove the preceding sentences and succeeding sentences is a pattern I'm seeing you repeat across several articles. Heesxiisolehh (talk) 22:22, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Head =/= sultan. Unless the source explicitly states that he was in fact sultan of the Dhulbahante as well as the Dervishes it is original research to add such content and cite said source.

I already explained my reasons: none of the sources cited state that Diiriye Guure was a sultan at all. The only other source I can think of that I did not mention is the Mad Mullah of Somaliland one, but again that source suffers from the same predicament (i.e no direct mention of Diiriye and/or mention of him as sultan).

On instances where I've removed your content I've been very clear with making sure to let you know as well as go through all the sources. Your accusation is therefore unfounded. Dabaqabad (talk) 23:10, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]