Talk:Somali National Movement

Foriegn Support

There is no doubt Foriegn Support for the SNM was instrumental to its existance, I am not sure why it is being removed through vandal edits.Aqooni (talk) 21:33, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Respectfully disagree. SNM was largely funded by diaspora in the Middle East and Europe well into late 80s.

"The initial resistance to the Siad Barre regime was in fact organized in the diaspora, with the Somali National Movement being created in London and Jeddah, Saudi Arabia in the early 1980s. From that time, the Somaliland community in the UK organized demonstrations in front of the Somali embassy in London, and informed the wider western public about the atrocities being committed by the Somali regime. Moreover, members of the diaspora collected funds and sent them to the SNM in eastern Ethiopia. They sent back equipment and medicine and lobbied western governments to end their political and financial support for the Barre regime."

"The peak of the SNM insurgency also coincided with the end of the Cold War, which further reduced the likelihood of its attracting superpower patronage. Instead, the SNM had to rely on the support of its Isaaq clan constituency for solvency, legitimacy and its ability to attract armed men to the struggle. Initially, this support was contingent predominantly on the capacity of the northern Somali diaspora that lived in Saudi Arabia, Europe and East Africa to send money home. The geographical distances between those funding the SNM from abroad and those fighting for it on the ground encouraged the use of a kin‐based money transfer system (abban) that kept the funds bound for the insurgency beyond the control of the Barre regime. These remittances went through Isaaq financiers who were based in Ethiopia near the Somali border, from where they sent the money to the SNM. This funding model placed wealthy Isaaq financiers in a political relationship with SNM leaders but did not allow the latter to control the funds, which helped the SNM avoid the southern problem of militia leaders also dominating local businesses.27"

"To supplement the funding from the diaspora for the war effort, the SNM established various forms of local taxation, including a requirement that every household contribute a payment of at least one sheep (or its cash equivalent) to the movement each year and at least one male to serve in its fighting forces.28 By the late 1980s, most ordinary Isaaq people were contributing both finances and fighters to the SNM, creating a level of dependence on the local communities that made looting them a self‐defeating prospect. By the time Somaliland declared its independence, then, it was no stranger to international isolation or to the need to extract revenues locally for political survival."

Ethiopia's support (which could be summarized as tolerance and plot of land in Dir Dawa) was not vital as proven by pact with Siad Barre in 1988, unlike SSDF who vanished by 1985, SNM survived the cessation of Ethiopian "support" as it operate autonomously and relied heavily on Isaaq diaspora contribution, that point alone renders your argument null and void.

Please do not revert the page until we finish our discussion, I will restore the article. SandMan25 (talk) 21:59, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Your additions are not neutral, and attempt to present SNM as tools of Ethiopia in its war with Somalia which is opposite of what most reliable sources document. The SNM’s funding came primarily through donations raised by Isaaq communities across the Gulf, other Arab states, East Africa and Western countries. Their bases were in Somali inhabited land in Ethiopia. The segment about Libyan support is also not entirely factual, please see Civil Wars in Africa by T. Ali, where he states: “The major opposition clan grouping was the Somali National Movement (SNM), which derived its main support from the Isaq clan-family of the north. The SNM was established in London early in 1981 but soon decided to move its operations to Ethiopia’s Somali towns and villages close to the border with former British Somaliland."

"Because Qadhafi disliked SNM leaders and would not finance their movement, they were obliged to raise funds among the Somali Isaq communities in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf, in other Arab states, in East Africa, and in Western countries. This decentralized method of fund-raising gave the movement relative independence: it also enhanced accountability to its numerous supporters. The SNM evolved democratic procedures. Between 1981 and 1991 it held about six congresses, during which it periodically elected leaders and established policies. In 1988, the SNM conducted several raids and a major military operation in northern Somalia, following a peace accord between Ethiopia and Somalia that removed Ethiopian restraints on SNM operations. The SNM was able to bottle up Siyad’s huge army, barricaded in towns and bases, for the next two years” page 175.

Wikipedia articles must maintain neutrality, which is why I reverted you. Please don’t edit war and discuss your content here in the talk page for consensus.SandMan25 (talk) 22:16, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

SandMan25 (talk), your sources within this talk page are not cited properly (Page 175?) , but the main point is, I am not disputing the origins of this group, I am not sure why you have writen an entire paragraph about that, that is besides the point. I am including onto this page the existance of foriegn support, which the SNM recieved. Anything that suggests otherwise is a lie. Which is noted by these various sources ( Shown below and marked by number), and is undeniable. You are removing my edits in a vandal like manner and not maintaing neutrality. This group had foriegn support and backers that is documented within many various academic sources. Removing them from the page is a clear source of bias, and I can get a wikipedia editor involed. Aqooni (talk) 23:09, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

• 1.Africa Confidential. Indiana University: Miramoor Publications Limited. 1987. p. 10. "It was this SNM offensive which led to the February clash when an Ethiopian battalion, backing up the SNM, crossed the border and assaulted Somali troops."
• 2.Colaresi, Michael P. (2005). Scare Tactics: The Politics of International Rivalry. Syracuse University Press. p. 79. ISBN 9780815630661.
• 3.Collective Punishment. Human Rights Watch. p. 19. "Another key development in the region in the early 1980s was the formation of the Somali National Movement (SNM), which drew support from the Isaaq clan in northern Somalia. The SNM obtained support from Mengistu's government to fight Siad Barre and the WSLF"
• 4.Reno, William (2011-06-13). Warfare in Independent Africa. Cambridge University Press. p. 154. ISBN 9781139498654.
• FitzGerald, V.; Stewart, F.; Venugopal, R. (2006-05-05). Globalization, Self-Determination and Violent Conflict. Springer. p. 165. ISBN 9780230502376.
• 5.Ciment, James; Hill, Kenneth L.; MacMichael, David; Skutsch, Carl (1999). Encyclopedia of Conflicts Since World War II: Palestine-Zimbabwe. Sharpe Reference.
• 6.Pegg, Scott (1998-01-01). International Society and the de Facto State. Ashgate. ISBN 9781840144789.
• Stanton, Martin (2009-03-12). Somalia on $5 a Day: A Soldier's Story. Random House Publishing Group. ISBN 9780307546999. "A low-level guerrilla war continued on the border with Ethiopia between the Ethiopian-backed Somali National Movement"
• 7.Bridges, Peter (2000). Safirka: An American Envoy. Kent State University Press. ISBN 9780873386586. "Siad Barre had antagonized the largest group of clans in the north, the Isaqs, and many of their men had gone over the border to join the largely Isaq Somali National Movement, or SNM. The Ethiopians, and the Libyans as well, were giving the SNM their support."

Aqooni (talk) 23:09, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

The point raised by Sandman25 regarding neutrality is valid. Your edit attempts to present SNM as agents of Ethiopia in its war with Somalia, this is inaccurate and contrary to most reliable sources discussing the Somali civil war. This is highly contentious and not neutral. It is well documented that funding for SNM’s activities was primarily raised by diaspora communities in the Gulf and elsewhere, and that the actual SNM bases were on Somali soil in Ethiopia close to the border with Somaliland. The source Sandman25 uses is from page 175 of this book [1], which states that the SNM relied on Isaaq communities in the diaspora to fund their operations. Ethiopia did support the SNM, there is no issue in including that, but giving it undue importance and an entire section is POV-pushing and does not serve neutrality of the article. Koodbuur (talk) 02:19, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

His point is not valid at all, leaving this page solely as "the workings of Isaaq Diaspora" as being the origins and support of this rebel group is not a neutral position ( when confronted with evidence showing otherwise). When in reality it was the workings in inner horn of Africa geo politics fueling part of this movement ( Mostly through Ethiopian funding, but Libyan funding was avaiblabe as well, please see the sources I have posted earlier), as shown by the sources I had posted. It is not against wikipedia poicies to show an organiziation was supported by forigners outside of it. Clearly the source I have posted are being removed due to bias. I am goig to report this to a wikipedia editor.Aqooni (talk) 04:14, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Please reread my reply above, I have not suggested that diaspora communities were the sole financiers of the SNM. I stated that the SNM did receive support from Ethiopia and there is no issue in including that. However the bulk of SNM funds were raised by the Isaaq diaspora and not Ethiopia as what your edit suggests. The reason your edit is problematic, in addition to copyvio, is giving Ethiopian assistance undue importance and an entire section, which does not serve neutrality of the article and be considered POV-pushing. Koodbuur (talk) 03:49, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

You have provided no adequate sources showing the "bulk" of the snm military and financial contributions were from the Isaaq diaspora. As we have both agreed foriegn assistance was given to this rebel group, there is no need to delete the clearly rightfully cited sources indicating that this occured. There is no bias in POV at all, merely the existance of foriegn support to this group. I am re storing the edit.Aqooni (talk) 18:09, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Also as shown by this source, the SNM also recieved ample military assistance by the Ethiopian regime of the time.

"During the attack on the northern Somali cities, the SNM received ample assistance from the Ethiopian military. The Ethiopians supported by providing artillery and anti tank weapons during their attacks. Mengistu continued to support the SNM and other Somali rebel groups, as late as November 1990.",

Also in the early 1980s, the start of the snm, they have recieved support from Ethiopia as shown in this source. The SNM has received foreign support during the course of its beginnings. In the early 1980s, the SNM drew financial and logistical support from Ethiopia'.

It is undeniable the SNM recieved foriegn support, there is no need for removal at all. Aqooni (talk) 18:52, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

There are multiple issues with your edit, all of which were highlighted above. Please continue the discussion in the talk page and do not restore the edit before reaching consensus. I think the issue Koodbuur is highlighting above is not the inclusion of support from Ethiopia, but giving it undue weight by dedicating an entire section to it which breaches neutrality per WP:UNDUE. With regards to sources for on financial support being provided by Isaaq diaspora, here are a few:

• Taisier M. Ali states "The SNM has proved the most democratic of the insurgency movements. At its 1981 founding in London, it elected Ahmed Jiumale from the Habar Awal clan as its first chair. It raised funds in a decentralized manner from local and expatriate members of Isaq clans and subclans. This saved it from coming under the control of Libya's Colonel Quaddafi, who funded the SSDF" [2].
• Anna Lindley states "Soon after, the leadership moved to Ethiopia, where the SNM began to organise as an armed force and by 1982 was undertaking cross-border incursions into Somalia. They began sending delegations and video cassettes of the forces to migrant workers in the Gulf, who, along with the major Isaq merchants, became the main source of finance. Money was raised through the sub-clans, like dia, with each lineage contributing an agreed portion. Individual contributions varied but it was not uncommon for people to pay $10 for every $200 that they earned. When they fell short of their agreed collective contribution, they called on richer clanspeople, particularly the big traders, to make up the difference. Sometimes businesspeople would advance funds to the SNM which were paid back through donations... Daallo airlines also played a role in facilitating transfers of finance to the forces. According to one of the members of the central committee responsible for finance in the early 1980s, around 70 per cent of their resources at that time came from the diaspora in the Middle East. The rest came mainly from within the region, including in kind contributions of animals and food from pastoralists in the rural areas of Ethiopia. By the mid-1980s, he said, people were contributing both to the central committee and directly to the fighting units associated with their clan lineage (particularly to deal with sickness, disability and other basic needs.)" [3].
• Lars Buur states: "Reno (2003: 24) argues convincingly that, because the SNM's financial and military resources were mostly raised within close-knit descent networks, traditional authorities "exercised greater control over finances and political processes of this group [SNM], compared with others involved in Somalia's conflicts" [4].

Lastly your edit is also problematic due to a breach of copyright as indicated to you above. Regards --Kzl55 (talk) 02:10, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Kzl55, You have no indicated any proof of breach of copyright, please show me. also you are clearly mistaken in my edit. No where in my edits do I suggest foreign support was the sole support for the SNM Rebel group, as you are alleging without evidence, but merely the fact that it has existed. Your attempt at trying to delete multiple academic sources, on the premises that "Isaaq contributed money as well" as if that negates the clear assistance of foreign support appears as vandalism towards this page. Look within this talk page, over 10 academic and well cited sources exist for the existence of foreign support for the SNM rebel group. My argument is to include the foriegn support for this rebel group, from whichever benefactors they may be. As indicated here as well, Mengistu and his Ethiopian government provided the SNM with ample support, something that has not been denied within the course of this talk page. Mengistu continued to support the SNM and other Somali rebel groups, as late as November 1990, as sourced here

It is also shown here that the SNM's Ethiopian patron, Mengistu also interfered in SMN's internal affairs and had early leaders arrested to hinder the SNM's utility as a vehicle for personal ambitions of political entrepreneurs., clearing showing an influence of Ethiopia onto the rebel group itself.'

Also according to the US LIBRARY OF CONGRESS, Nevertheless, by 1991 it had become evident that Ethiopia had failed to honor the provisions of the joint comity‚. The Mengistu regime allowed the anti-Siad Barre Somali National Movement (SNM) to maintain offices in Addis Ababa and Dire Dawa and to operate five training camps near Dire Dawa. Additionally, the Ethiopian government still provided materiel and logistical support to the SNM. Despite these violations, Somalia refrained from re initiating hostilities with Ethiopia. http://memory.loc.gov/frd/etsave/et_04_08.html Also here it is shown the through Ethiopia's urging is what drove the SNM to engage with talks with other anti Somali government rebel groups, such as SSDF, and that the Ethiopian authorities joined the SNM leadership in joint initiatives against Siad Barre. https://books.google.com/books?id=AGNQDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA146#v=onepage&q&f=false

Multiple other Sources stating the Ethiopian influence on the SNM

• 1.Africa Confidential. Indiana University: Miramoor Publications Limited. 1987. p. 10. "It was this SNM offensive which led to the February clash when an Ethiopian battalion, backing up the SNM, crossed the border and assaulted Somali troops."
• 2.Colaresi, Michael P. (2005). Scare Tactics: The Politics of International Rivalry. Syracuse University Press. p. 79. ISBN 9780815630661.
• 3.Collective Punishment. Human Rights Watch. p. 19. "Another key development in the region in the early 1980s was the formation of the Somali National Movement (SNM), which drew support from the Isaaq clan in northern Somalia. The SNM obtained support from Mengistu's government to fight Siad Barre and the WSLF"
• 4.Reno, William (2011-06-13). Warfare in Independent Africa. Cambridge University Press. p. 154. ISBN 9781139498654.
• FitzGerald, V.; Stewart, F.; Venugopal, R. (2006-05-05). Globalization, Self-Determination and Violent Conflict. Springer. p. 165. ISBN 9780230502376.
• 5.Ciment, James; Hill, Kenneth L.; MacMichael, David; Skutsch, Carl (1999). Encyclopedia of Conflicts Since World War II: Palestine-Zimbabwe. Sharpe Reference.
• 6.Pegg, Scott (1998-01-01). International Society and the de Facto State. Ashgate. ISBN 9781840144789.
• Stanton, Martin (2009-03-12). Somalia on $5 a Day: A Soldier's Story. Random House Publishing Group. ISBN 9780307546999. "A low-level guerrilla war continued on the border with Ethiopia between the Ethiopian-backed Somali National Movement"
• 7.Bridges, Peter (2000). Safirka: An American Envoy. Kent State University Press. ISBN 9780873386586. "Siad Barre had antagonized the largest group of clans in the north, the Isaqs, and many of their men had gone over the border to join the largely Isaq Somali National Movement, or SNM. The Ethiopians, and the Libyans as well, were giving the SNM their support." Aqooni (talk) 05:23, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

There is little need to turn this into a text-wall battle, please reread my comment above "I think the issue Koodbuur is highlighting above is not the inclusion of support from Ethiopia, but giving it undue weight by dedicating an entire section to it which breaches neutrality per WP:UNDUE", and yes, your text is in breach of copyright. As an example: "Mengistu kept a watchful eye on his SNM clients, many of whom included defectors from Somalia's army, high-level politicians, and civil servants, and insisted that their headquarters be based in Ethiopia's capital. An early SNM chairman complained that Mengistu was using the group as a way of playing chess with Siad Barre" is entirely lifted from [5]. Or this "Mengistu also interfered in SMN's internal affairs and had early leaders arrested to hinder the SNM's utility as a vehicle for personal ambitions of political entrepreneurs" which was lifted directly, including the erroneous spelling of "SMN" from [6]. --Kzl55 (talk) 12:05, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

I am in agreement with Kzl55 above. As I and others have stated previously, it is not neutral to dedicate an entire section to Ethiopian support, when there is evidence of the Isaaq diaspora financing a significant portion of the movement. Please do not restore contentious edits until a consensus has been reached on this page. Koodbuur (talk) 01:50, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

References

Ethiopian support for the SNM

These sources very clearly mention explicit Ethiopian support and aid for the SNM. I don't see the reason why this is disputed, perhaps an administrator should look into the case as to why the edits are being removed. Please feel free to check these sources:

• 1.Africa Confidential. Indiana University: Miramoor Publications Limited. 1987. p. 10. "It was this SNM offensive which led to the February clash when an Ethiopian battalion, backing up the SNM, crossed the border and assaulted Somali troops."
• 2.Colaresi, Michael P. (2005). Scare Tactics: The Politics of International Rivalry. Syracuse University Press. p. 79. ISBN 9780815630661.
• 3.Collective Punishment. Human Rights Watch. p. 19. "Another key development in the region in the early 1980s was the formation of the Somali National Movement (SNM), which drew support from the Isaaq clan in northern Somalia. The SNM obtained support from Mengistu's government to fight Siad Barre and the WSLF"
• 4.Reno, William (2011-06-13). Warfare in Independent Africa. Cambridge University Press. p. 154. ISBN 9781139498654.
• FitzGerald, V.; Stewart, F.; Venugopal, R. (2006-05-05). Globalization, Self-Determination and Violent Conflict. Springer. p. 165. ISBN 9780230502376.
• 5.Ciment, James; Hill, Kenneth L.; MacMichael, David; Skutsch, Carl (1999). Encyclopedia of Conflicts Since World War II: Palestine-Zimbabwe. Sharpe Reference.
• 6.Pegg, Scott (1998-01-01). International Society and the de Facto State. Ashgate. ISBN 9781840144789.
• Stanton, Martin (2009-03-12). Somalia on $5 a Day: A Soldier's Story. Random House Publishing Group. ISBN 9780307546999. "A low-level guerrilla war continued on the border with Ethiopia between the Ethiopian-backed Somali National Movement"
• 7.Bridges, Peter (2000). Safirka: An American Envoy. Kent State University Press. ISBN 9780873386586. "Siad Barre had antagonized the largest group of clans in the north, the Isaqs, and many of their men had gone over the border to join the largely Isaq Somali National Movement, or SNM. The Ethiopians, and the Libyans as well, were giving the SNM their support." MustafaO (talk) 10:00, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Signatures-Somaliland-independece-.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:08, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

'South African' pilots photo

The photo of purported 'South African' pilots is in fact of Royal Air Force servicemen. This is the original source, and I would recommend reading the full thread here UncleBourbon (talk) 11:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

"Anti-communism" is inaccurate.

Siad Barre's regime had ceased any form of socialism and was receiving little to no support from the USSR, the organisation first formed to oppose the oppression and waning of nationalism and later became violent at the change of religion, none of which has to due with anti-communism. 92.236.211.53 (talk) 21:54, 22 December 2023 (UTC)