Talk:Snus/Archive 1

Archive 1

Debate among Public Health researchers

FYI

 – Just a note a section addition.

Hi, all. Just added this section, among a couple smaller edits and two additional links. I'm a new Wikipedia author, and tried to keep it NPOV, but I welcome any edits for clarity and neutrality. As a recent convert from cigarettes to snus who orders it from Sweden for shipment to the US, I want to make sure that the research, which shows that Snus is a viable and safer (and less stinky) alternative to smoking, is available to those who seek it. I will also attempt to find and add any references to resarch which opposes these findings. --NightMonkey 07:20, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

Title

Resolved

 – They're not the same topic.

Why is this article at Snus? Is this really a more commonly-known name for Snuff? RickK 21:24, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

While Snus is often referred to as snuff, it goes through a very different manufacturing process than, say, American chewing tobacco (Mail Pouch) or American snuff (like Copenhagen, Skoal, et al). And since this is a process crafted by the Swedes, they get the right to name this form of tobacco... Also significant is the research indiciating a significant and favorable difference in cancer rates and other tobacco-related health effects in snus, which are still present in other forms of tobacco, including other forms of snuff. --NightMonkey 18:59, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

Then it is NOT sometimes called snuff, and I will delete that. RickK 19:15, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

Well, it _is_ sometimes called snuff, generally outside Sweden. It's more that it is considered a form of snuff, rather than the only snuff (or the Swedish word for snuff). I do believe that it is a bit confusing for non-Swedish readers, since snuff is most often associated with tobacco that is snorted, rather than this form which is used more like chewing tobacco. Also, historically, Swedish snus was, in the 18th and 19th centuries, snorted, IIRC, which only adds to the confusion. --NightMonkey 23:44, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Makla

Stale

 – It's mentioned in the article. No sources are given below, after several years, for anything more to add about it.

Snus is also known as Makla in North-Africa and is consumed there since about two centuries or more. I'm afraid that the "myth" of the broken glass in the snus could be true for some Makla, although definitive information is hard to find and concerne perhaps local quasi home made products. The most famous Belgo-African snus is Makla Ifrikia. It is freely abailable in many tobacco shops in Belgium, although the less dangerous, with respect to the level of nitrosamine, swedish product is not BruMar (talk) 12:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

It should be mentioned that "snus" is consumed in North Africa since more than two centuries, but also in South Europa under the name of MAKLA. The most famous brand is Makla Ifrikia, currently produced and sold by a Belgian Company (sifaco benelux) in a (rather cute) gray metallic can (20g). It seems utterly weird that the European Union refuses the selling of the swedish snus in Europa by pretexting not to introduce new addictive products, given that makla has always been sold and consumed in many European countries since a very long time. BruMar (talk) 12:55, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I think Makla Ifrikia is chewing tobacco. This is way its legal in EU. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.209.189.110 (talk) 20:29, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Several people have mentioned makla. Anyone who have enough knowledge about both snus and makla to make a judgement whether it should be mentioned in the article or not? Should it be regarded as the African version of snus or as a different but similar product that should have its own article? /Jiiimbooh (talk) 20:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Makla and snus, in my opinion (which has been raised by both my reading and personal experience) is that they are definitely the same type of product: Moist or wet, humid, tobacco that you consume without smoking nor chewing, only by putting the tobacco in loose form, or after enclosing it in prepared or self-rolled tea-bag paper, right under the lip. According to Pr R. Molimard, the belgo-african maklas are produced with *Nicotiana rustica*, a wilder form of tobacco which would be richer in nitrosamin et nornicotin. But this is not an argument for separating them as type of product, imo. Last change: 16 mai 2008. BruMar (talk) 19:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I think in the absence of evidence, conflating Swedish snus (which has a growing body of scientific and medical research on its health effects) with other oral tobacco products, is potentially a disservice to readers. American oral tobaccos (Skoal, etc), Gutka and other oral tobaccos have widely different potential health effects than Swedish snus. Perhaps taking the Gutka article as an example might point to creating a separate article on Makla. --NightMonkey (talk) 23:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll add to that -- it's my understanding that "naswar" is related to Swedish snus in that it's an oral tobacco (like "dip" or "chew") but is not the same thing as Swedish snus, also having widely different potential health effects than Swedish snus, and I don't know why it's mentioned in the first paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.161.2.241 (talk) 00:51, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that this product is very common in Algeria in as well. They sell it everywhere, on the street, in stores. It used to come in little tin cans but now they sell it in bags. It goes by the name of "Chemma" and walking around any city you will see lots of tin cans of chemma on the ground.

I would love to know more about it. Chewing tobacco (snuff, smokeless tobacco) is manufactured in many places, from Brazil to India, but I think Swedish and Danish snus is very different. Although the actual tobacco comes from Asia, it is fermented and blended locally and unlike other smokeless tobacco produts, snus is very moist. It is also not as aromatic as Indian or Arab stuff. Roobit 00:20, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Isn't there an article on wikipedia about this? When I was staying near Barbés-Roucheouart(?) in paris, i bought some Algerian snuff called "devil under the lip" or something similar/Marxmax 00:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Atherosclerosis

Resolved

 – Off-topic.

I'm reading the Swedish page for snus right now via Google translator. They talk a bit about atherosclerosis and then there's this - "The study was published in the scientific journal Scandinavian Journal of Public Health 2006 Although the researchers took into account differences in gender, age, physical activity and level of the study showed a highly increased risk of so-called metabolic syndrome for those who sniffed at least four cans snuff per week."

-Snuff is an inhaled powder. What you're reading about isn't snus. One doesn't "sniff" snus.174.100.89.87 (talk) 18:38, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that the above was passed through a machine translator. The original contained the verb "snusa", meaning to use snus. This evidently came through as sniffing snuff instead of snusing snus. :-) It is indeed about snus; it is from the Swedish Wikipedia article. 130.243.131.44 (talk) 01:32, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I would recommend someone who speaks both Swedish and English look into this. It just seems to me that the Swedish page is much less optimistic about the health risks of snus, which seems strange, because that's the country where they use it most... I make no attempts to guess why this is, simply stating that it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.226.182.173 (talk) 10:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Health observations from a long-term user

Disregard

 – We cannot use anecdote, only reliable sources.

Ok, ive never done this before so be patient :) anyway, the health issues with snus is that it lowers your blood preassure, it gives you somewhat coloured teeth (much less so if you use white portion), it might give you throat cancer, it tears the tissue above the teeth (obviously that's where you put it). Some users gets their snot drippling down in their mouth, since the membrane between the mouth and the nose has been corroded. (!)Most of these effects will not show the first, say 20 years of usage. I've snused 7-10 white portion for 3 years and none of these effects exept for the slightly corroding thingy has occured, so if you go from the health point of view, I would still recommend using snus rather than cigarrettes. Again, sorry for potential bad english :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrian91 (talk • contribs) 20:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments about anti-tobacco WP:NOT#ADVOCACY editing

Resolved

 – Four years later the article seems well-balanced.

I'd like to congratulate the authors of this page. I was expecting to find something similar to the WP Passive Smoking page, which is under the control of about six anti-tobacco fanatics. If you experience a concerted attempt to include sections on heath risks which you feel are an abuse of science and statistics, take a look at who the authors are and check them with the Passive Smoking page. Glad to see there is someone with an understanding of multiple comparisons. By the way, some Swedish companies will deliver snus to the UK. Probably best not to advertise the fact.130.88.123.137 (talk) 15:59, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Picture removed

Resolved

 – Removal was not controversial.

Snus Röda Lacket and Prismaster

I just removed this image, uploaded from an anon IP. Nothing terribly wrong with it (it isn't obscene). It's more aesthetics - 2/3rds of the photo is background, not subject, the flash reflection obscures the name on the snus can, and the prismaster is a bit too dark. --NightMonkey 18:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

The myth of the broken glass content

Stale

 – No sources provided connect this urban legend to snus instead of to American "dip".

Should there be a mention of the still widely believed (false) myth that snus once upon a time contained small pieces of broken glass in the mixture? - 80.202.123.190 18:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Widely believed? Never heard about it. (Entheta 18:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

ABSOLUTELY FALSE!

The myth where I grew up (in Ohio) is that shredded fiberglass was one of the ingredients in Kodiak, Copenhagen, etc. This supposedly helps the tobacco injest itself into the bloodstream, becoming more addictive. I have heard over the years that this is indeed false.

<sarcastic>Right.. because otherwise, chaw t'baccy is harmless.</sarcastic> (not counting snus, or course) (ps targeted at the myth propagators who are not here to defend themselves, not at the above poster) Gzuckier 19:12, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I was discussing this with some Norwegians and it is still a widely held view that glass fragments were used. I think it should be mentioned in the article.

This is indeed a pretty common myth, see for example this FAQ by GothiaTek: http://www.gothiatek.com/bazment.aspx?page_id=80#bazAnchor_1748 Fuelbottle 12:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

URL just redirects to a manufacturer page, which says nothing about this.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:54, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I was not aware that this was a myth. A friend of mine once said that General, a brand of snus, used to contain powdered glass to help create microtears in the gums. If it is a myth, that should be mentioned. If it is something specific to that brand, that should be mentioned too. Zuiram 03:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Youc an sometimes see what looks like broken glass in snus boxes. I think it's chrystalised somthing. Let's see what I can found out about it. // Liftarn (talk)

That is most likely crystallised salt. 217.208.0.149 (talk) 22:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Snus is know as Makla is North-Africa and South Europa. It is a traditional way for Africans to consume tobacco through Makla. About the "myth" of broken glass, I have heard it only about some belgo-african Makla, never about north european or american snus. To protect myself against those broken glass I am used to put the loose makla in piece of tea bag paper. To be sure I have no serious evidence above the way it affects the gums when taken loose. But some swedish snus have a similar, although different effects, some of which persists even with the tea bags. I think I will ask fellow chemists to dig dipper on that question. I have not found evidence such possible silice cristal, perhaps used only for the texture, can be harmful. Open question. BruMar (talk) 12:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

"The prick or burning sensation in the palate is a result of salt and not glass fragments." - this needs a quotation, because i think it is actually from the nicotene. if you put salt in under your lip it doesn't cause a burning sensation like snus, but nicotene?? - can any confirm this or have a quote to confirm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.65.154 (talk) 13:32, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

It's an urban legend about American dipping tobacco, and isn't really relevant here (or at least no sources also indicate it's an urban legend about snus as well, and this thread has gone on for a decade. Marking this stale.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:57, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

External links?

Resolved

 – These heading positions are determined at MOS:LAYOUT.

should't the external links headline be moved up?johan_h 23:53, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

No. --NightMonkey 01:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

History preserved here

Resolved

 – The cleanup was not controversial.

Here's the History that I removed, as it had been tagged "Unverified" for quite some time, and definitely has problems, NPOV-wise and Verifiability-wise.

== History ==

{{Not verified}}Snus came out of snuff which was first used in the year 1560 by the queen of [[France]] ''[[Katarina de Medici]]'' as a cure for headache. [[Jean Nicot]], French ambassador in [[Lissabon]], told her to take tobacco and make it into a powder(dry) and sniff it up her nose. It apparently worked and soon became very popular in the higher society of France. This snuff quickly spread through Europe and the Swedish high society began using it around the year 1640. When Napoleon fell however, the snuff fell out of fashion and people began smoking cigars instead. Around 1790-1800 Swedish farmers began putting the snuff under their lips instead of sniffing it and they produced it themselves. The snus got more and more popular and brands began to pop up. "[[Ettan]]" was the most popular and the biggest brand in 1822. Between 1846 and 1930 a lot of swedish people emigrated to America and so the snus was also seen there and became sort of a trademark for Sweden and Swedish people.

--NightMonkey 20:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Since we need verifiable sources, I've put the history here for cleanup, both in terms of grammar and sourcing. No original research, please.

==History==

The history of Swedish tobacco starts around [[1638]], during the [[1700s|1700's]], the main use of tobacco was in [[snuff]]. But it wasn't until the late [[1700s|1700's]] that anything resembling snus as it is known today came into being, due to the style at the time in Sweden of tucking the tobacco under the top lip, in a sort of combination [[snuff]]-[[chewing tobacco]] style. By the [[1820s|1820's]], [[Jacob Fredrik Ljunglöf]] had started to manufacture snus, with the brand name of [[Ettan]].

--NightMonkey 10:03, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I did source it, at the bottom of the page in references, the two websites that had history of snus on them. What was wrong with them?. J.P.Lon 01:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Merger?

Resolved

 – No consensus to merge. These are three separate topics with well-developed articles.

A new article, called Snuff (tobacco) was recently started. Merger? --Camptown 12:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

As much as Dipping tobacco should be. Or less so. J.P.Lon 01:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

You shouldnt merge snuff and snus, they are two totally different things, for one snus goes on the gum, snuff up the nose.

Agree, a "see also" at the bottom of the pages should be included though.--Njård 20:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Can we put this to bed yet? I would have thought this would be a resounding No. J.P.Lon 16:46, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Done. Removed. --NightMonkey 07:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Considering the stubby nature of the main snuff article and the fact that the Swedish product is always referred to as "snuff" when translated, I think the articles should be merged. At the very least, a sizable summary of this article should be included in snuff (tobacco). Trying to pretend that the two concepts are entirely unrelated won't make anyone the wiser and seems to be a good example of POV forking (if not a particularly offensive one). Do keep in mind that that snus isn't a modern term and that this very word was (and is still) used to refer to the kind of tobacco which was historically snorted.

Peter ^Isotalo 13:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Unclear wording?

Resolved

 – Fixed.

This is a small edit, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one confused before I made it. (And I don't have a lot of experience here.) In the Types section, it says "The weights may vary, but the most sold snus labels share their weight." My initial confusion was if the most sold types of snus tended to weight the same ("share their weight")... at which point I might expect portions that weighed twice as much to come half as many to a tin. Or whether labels on the most popular types of snus tended to divulge their the weights of the portions on the label. I think the latter is the intent of the sentence, in which case I propose the word "share" be changed to "divulge" or "specify". But I actually think the whole sentence should be rewritten as I think we have a grammatical problem. It sounds as if snus labels are being sold rather than snus. Perhaps something like "Most of the popular brands will specify the weights of these variants on their label." Weddingexpert 04:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

This is a good example of why to be WP:BOLD. That wording was unclear, but no one bothered to fix it for over seven years. Minor copy-edits should just be made, not turned into talk threads, or they mostly don't happen. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:46, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Niccotine-free snus

Resolved

 – Adequately covered in the article.

What about niccotine free snus like Onico[1]? Should it be mentioned? It's based on maize fibres instead of tobacco. // Liftarn (talk)

The link you gave specifically states that the product mentioned isn't snus. More like a snus substitute.--Metalhead94 (talk) 23:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

This is covered and sourced in the article, without confusing it with real snus, so I'm marking this resolved, for archival.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:08, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Content for inclusion?

Stale

 – Seven-year-old thread on what to include; long since surpassed.

What about the addiction? I know by a lot of friends that to quite snus is much harder than normal tobacco

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.109.251.22 (talk) 03:53, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Should there perhaps be a mention of the littering problem associated with snus? I don't know about Sweden, but here in Norway you can find the empty cans and used pris'es littering just about anywhere. Zuiram 03:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, the addition of whisky or rum to loose snus for added taste might also be added, but I don't have a good source for this. The local tobacco specialist offers it, at no added charge, though. Zuiram 03:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Why has Camel Snus and the Taboka snus, both the very first American versions of snus and cited by verifiable sources, been removed? deronde

I was about to add Camel to the list after recieving something in the mail from them advertising their Snus. Can someone offer a good reason why it should not be included? I don't believe it's in stores yet but they do manufacture it. DraxusD 20:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I almost think there should be a new section for the American brands, now that we have Taboka, Marlboro Snus and Camel Snus on the market. Since Taboka redirects to Snus, there should definitely at least be a clear explanation of why it's considered Snus since they don't call it snus on the packaging or marketing for the product. Allen p 19:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Not sure where this goes (first time I've ever attempted to edit Wikipedia) but I was just reading the study "Snus och blodtryck" translated through Google, and it seems to me that it does mention that a higher percentage of people who used snus in the study were on blood pressure medication. Although I'm not a scientist or doctor, to me it suggests that there may be a correlation between snus and blood pressure (though I could be wrong, of course - I certainly don't speak Swedish) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.234.152.27 (talk) 21:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I've read independent studies indicating users of Swedish snus (who don't smoke cigarettes) have lower blood pressure than non-users. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.161.2.241 (talk) 22:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Rhymes with noose?

Stale

 – This discussion dates to over 7 years ago, and no sources have been provided.

Forgive me, but I don't think snus rhymes with noose, because I assume -oose in noose is pronounced the same as in moose? Then snus does not rhyme with noose. Drogo 14:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree that the Scandinavian pronounciation of snus doesn't rhyme with English word noose, but the way I have heard English-speaking people pronounce snus, it does rhyme with noose. --Kvaks 21:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

A few years ago I asked an Englishman to read out from my snus tin and he said it in a way that rhymes with bus. 217.208.0.149 (talk) 22:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm British, and I thought it rhymed with noose - either that, or worse, but not bus. 84.92.192.93 (talk) 23:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm British but have lived in Sweden for a long time... Swedish vowels are a little different to English ones, but the best approximation would be 'moose' or 'noose'.131.111.46.12 (talk) 14:43, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm Swedish (with a certain interest in various British dialects), and I'd say that a much better approximation would be 'cruise' or 'bruise' spoken with a Scottish (or extreme north-east English) accent specifically. That's still not 100% correct, but approximately 96-98%, definitely closer than moose/noose.90.227.168.135 (talk) 08:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

How the British pronounce it is essentially irrelevant, since it's obsolete data (not that we have a source for it anyway); the product has been illegal there for years.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:55, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I think the best pronunciation of Snus, rhymes with puss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.69.75.187 (talk) 18:28, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd say the closest thing to the long Swedish u-sound in snus you can get in any English accent would be the prefix u-sound in ewww (as in nasty). sneh:www:s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.112.129.143 (talk) 17:49, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I would say the u-sound in "snus" sounds like "new", "nuke" and "duke" in English. -Marko75 (talk) 22:48, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I am curious where the imformation came from in regards to the types of snus - i.e. moose snus, zeus snus, etc. especially the sluice snus. I am pretty familiar with moist tobacco products in the US, and think that maybe someone is pulling someone's leg here. Funny, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.26.174.230 (talk) 17:13, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I have heard a dozen Swedish people pronounce "snus", The closest I think is "Sneus" or "Sneuhs", with a slight "e" and long "u" sounds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.166.75.230 (talk) 21:57, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Is /ˈsnuːs/ a really well adopted way of pronouncing this word in English? My point is that the word comes from Swedish, and snus is primarily used in Sweden and Norway, and both Swedish and Norwegian would pronounce the word /ˈsnʉ:s/ (with a close central compressed vowel, that is) - so I'm just asking if the pronunciation given really is the most correct pronunciation in English? - Perkunite —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.112.67.196 (talk) 02:36, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

The "snooss" pronunciation with the long "oo" of "moon" is what I've most often heard (in the US) from people who use/sell it, people who're aware it's a singular noun and not English in origin. I've also, rarely, heard a variant with something like the "oo" sound in "book", apparently an half-hearted attempt to approximate the Swedish sound. People not actually familiar with the product, or familiar only with "American snus", say all kinds of things. I've heard "snuhss" (or "snuss" if you like), and (from people mistaking it for a plural of a singular noun) "snooz" (or the word "snooze") and "snuhz" (or "snuzz"), even "snyooz", and probably others I didn't mentally remark on.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:23, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Folk etymology

Resolved

 – Not true.

Is it possible that the English word Snuff comes from a Swedish/Norwegian Snuſ? Where ſ is a long s? Old Swedish/Norwegian appear to have the ſ.

American English	Swedish
An italicized long s used in the word "Congress" in the United States Bill of Rights.	I frakturtext används det långa s:et, som här i den norska tidningen Aftenpostens logotype, som i stort sett är likadan fortfarande

NevilleDNZ (talk) 09:09, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

No. See "snuff" entry in any English-language dictionary with etymologies. It's plausible that they're related, from the same stem, though; I don't have a Swedish etymological dictionary with which to verify that, though. And it is not necessary for the article, per WP:NOTDICTIONARY.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:23, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Norwegian nanny state proposing tax hike ... again.

Stale

 – Too old to add (as of 2015), and no sources given for what the result was, so it's obsolete news anyway.

Maybe could be incorporated in the article, if anyone wishes. http://www.newsinenglish.no/2010/10/12/state-tries-to-curb-jump-in-snuff-use/

Forgot to sign!

--Lakkasuo (talk) 09:15, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Unclear Wording

Stale

 – Minor copyediting thread from 4 years ago.

"A popular movement during the run-up to the 1994 referendum for Sweden's EU membership made exemption from the EU sale ban of snus a condition of the membership treaty."

suggestion:

--A popular movement during the run-up to the 1994 referendum for Sweden's EU membership, was to exempt Sweden from the EU sale ban on snus, a condition of the membership treaty.

Tierjj (talk) 10:16, 29 January 2011 (UTC) 10:15, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

That's actually much less clear wording. Your comma placement is also problematic. -Native English speaker. 94.223.93.19 (talk) 17:18, 26 May 2011 (UTC)