Talk:Sleep deprivation/Archive 1

as depression treatment (2004-07-27)

Amended:

"Sleep deprivation is sometimes used as a method of torture, but in recent years it has been shown to be an effective treatment of depression mental illnesses."

To:

"Sleep deprivation is sometimes used as a method of torture."

Since sleep deprivation has all sorts of known unpleasant side-effects, a claim to the contrary really needs to be supported. I find it very hard to believe that sleep deprivation would be a useful treatment for mental illness, and so, without further elaboration, I think the above claim is dangerous. --Tremolo 07:41, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's a well-established treatment (not particularly "recent") for depression. I'm a little sleep-deprived now myself, but I'll add something about it – with refs – in the next few days. –Smokin 18:02, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

This can be read in any neurobiology textbook. It is not widely used, but certainly has beneficial effects. I've added it back in.8472 09:23, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I have not slept at all for 36 hours now, and the night before this I slept maybe only one hour, or I would now have been awake for 60 hours. My previously intolerable depression has abated remarkably. Profit

Since this section now has links to two references, I've removed the "citation needed" tag from the summary up top. Rhizome 22:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Also removed the "...and other mental illnesses as well" part of the summary, since (1) that does need a citation (2) it looks like nobody's been able to find a supporting citation for that for two years. Rizome 22:55, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

It states at the top of the page (under "Physiological effects") that an effect of SD is clinical depression. How can SD cause depression, as well as be used as a tool to treat depression?

Very poorly written section

The section quoted below is impressively "challenging" in it's poor english and uncited content.

"Finally, if one were to attempt to stay up past 48 hours, to achieve audio (visual occurs after 72 hours, generally) hallucinations, a good nights rest is required before hand as to restore the glycogen stores in the liver to its maximum potential, and caffeine cannot be a common habit, as the effects will not be as powerful when ingested to stay awake. Methamphetamines/amphetamines or other illegal stimulants make staying awake very easy during the nights that seem to get longer and longer, but in the long run can lead to delusional paranoia at the 72 hour or visual hallucination mark. This may lead one to become a danger to him/herself. Basically, after twenty-four hours, don't sit still, don't turn out the lights and don't watch TV for too long. You will certainly fail to meet your mark." —Preceding unsigned comment added by John8472 (talk • contribs) 12:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Side effects may include (2005-04-19)

Lack of sleep may also result in irritability, blurred vision, slurred speech, memory lapses, overall confusion, hallucinations, nausea, psychosis, and eventually death.

It would be nice if the article specified how much lack of sleep one would need in order for these conditions to apply, and for how long one would need to lack sleep? I'm not much of an expert in it, but you probably aren't going to die if you get four hours of sleep one night, but it might make you pretty irritable the next day. 24.52.142.7 06:33, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Essentially, it's just cumulative, and we can't provide hard limits on it, although there is probably some empirical data out there about how often something occurs after a given amount of time, which would be nice to include. A single night without sleep can produce some of the effects, which may or may not be noticeable against background variation, and it gets progressively worse as time goes on. While going a weekend with no sleep might give some people mild hallucinations, going months with very little would probably give most people mild to moderate hallucinations, with some getting severe hallucinations, for instance. Zuiram 00:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

There are no known cases of humans dying from lack of sleep. Unless someone can present evidence to the contrary, then this statement should be removed. akula alfa 07:35, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreement with the above - if anything, existing studies seem to show that lack of sleep CANNOT kill you, period. While the possibility is there that lack of sleep can cause other pre-existing medical conditions to worsen (perhaps even to lethal levels), the lack of sleep itself cannot kill. (give me a day or two, and I'll find the pertinent writings on the subject)

How about blurry vision / difficulty focusing? I've got some of that right now. --STGM 12:29, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

These can occur just hours after you should have gone to bed, or may take the next day to develop, depending on various factors. Zuiram 00:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

You may not die from lack of sleep, but maybe that micro nap (When you "fall asleep" without knowing it and then wake up 5 - 30 seconds later [I think it's called a micro nap, not sure though]) that you take in the car on the way to work/school will kill you--74.225.202.64 01:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Short article (2005-07-03)

Much of this article (and more) is replicated at sleep. Should we move that information here do the opposite and redirect this article? Acegikmo1 3 July 2005 04:46 (UTC)

Yes, by all means let's move that stuff here and leave a brief summary & redirect at sleep. –Smokin 18:02, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Total sleep deprivation in rats (2005-10-10)

If "Total sleep deprivation in rats leads to death in 28 days." how can they die again later?: "Death occurs later if only REM or only NREM sleep are eliminated." Kellerman 20:32, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

hahaha.

== I think the guy meant that with just plain sleep deprivation, the rats die in 28 days. With just REM sleep eliminated, or just NREM sleep eliminated, then they die later.

Just a quick bit of math... assuming the rats would otherwise live 2 years (ballpark figure), then the equivalent loss of sleep would be about 3 years of total sleep deprivation in humans. I don't think we have many people to attest to the effects of such extensive sleep deprivation, so any conclusions about lethality will be a long time in the making (wait for the next witchhunt/holocaust/nanking). The bottom line, though, is that the mental impairment would probably cause you to get killed in an accident long before 3 years had passed. Zuiram 00:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree (2005-11-10)

Sleep deprivation doesn't cause death, but severe altered mental states. The statement "Sleep deprivation can cause death." should be deleted.

Depends on how you define "cause". Being sleep deprived behind the steering wheel of a car can be a pretty direct cause of you getting killed, so if we say drunk driving kills, I think we can at least say sleep-deprived driving kills, for instance. And a sleep deprived pilot can kill several people. Zuiram 00:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

A bullet doesn't "cause" death, severe bleeding does. StrangeWill (talk) 11:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Death due to lack of Sleep (2005-11-14)

I do Psychology and I heard about this disease called "Fatal Insomnia" Basically, it affects a part of your brain and you are then unable to fall asleep again. I heard he took a high dosage of sleeping pills which would have sent a normal person into a coma, but it didn't affect him at all. Not sure if this is what you wanted but hope it helps. http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec06/ch090/ch090c.html

Two forms: sporadic fatal insomnia and fatal familial insomnia. Prion diseases affecting predominantly the thalamus, which influences sleep. At first, minor difficulties falling asleep and occasional problems with muscle movements. Eventually, lose the ability to sleep and other symptoms. Death usually occurs after about 7 to 36 months. No treatment available. Jclerman 23:42, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

A slang but commonly used term for this disease is being a "living zombie".

Section heading

The paragraph beginning with "Recent studies show sleep deprivation has some potential…" seem to be about sleep deprivation as a treatment for depression, yet the section heading is As a cause of depression. This is confusing … or am I missing something? –Gustav 01:41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Effects on growth (2005-12-23)

Can someone remove the jargon and present the 'Effects on growth' section in a fashion that the average person can understand it?

I just came here to say exactly the same thing. English please. Does lack of sleep make you grow more or less? It's impossible to tell all that bumpf there.

More. Which might explain why I'm 6ft, while my parents are about 5'8", or not. ;) Zuiram 00:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sleep Deprivation and Death (2006-02-01)

How do we know that sleep deprivation leads to death in humans, discounting FFI.

Wasn't some famous ancient greek philosopher executed by means of sleep deprivation, after the athens people decided he was an atheist and who should be killed to please the gods on Mt. Olympus? 91.83.23.74 (talk) 20:56, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I have a sleep awareness disorder where my self awareness doesn't let my brain shut down to sleep, and i very often stay awake weeks with only a few hours sleep here and there. Of course, i feel like death most of the time, but I'm really wondering whether this will culminate in my mortality. No evidence in the med literature for humans though. RB Feb,1,06

It will contribute to mortality, which is why we still have sleep drugs powerful enough to induce a coma if necessary. Your sleep doc should do something about this. Zuiram 00:34, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Years without sleep (2006-03-15)

Im taking this line out. Just because this Vietnamese guy says he's gone three decades w/o sleep, does not make it true. We need more documentation for an outrageous claim like that. user:Stanley011

No, we just need to say that he claims he did, rather than that he did. Leave it in. Zuiram 00:34, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay then, I claim to have been awake for 4 decades. Should that go in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.45.125.5 (talk) 04:07, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Zuiram's answer was a bit too short. The man claims he's gone three decades without sleep and several "Reliable Sources" have reported (on) that claim. I'm not saying whether the sources are good or not, but the claim can be sourced. (Can yours? ;-)) - Hordaland (talk) 20:40, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Alcohol

Does anyone have any information relating to the effects on long term health of intoxication whilst sleep deprived.

I am a chronic insomniac, I have little control over it. I have done some silly things in the past, ie- get drunk whilst having not slept for over 24 hours sometimes almost double that.

The first time this happened three years ago I woke up with a ringing my ear and constant hissing and it has not gone away. Unfortunately I did this recently and it's made it even worse. I have been seeing a psychiatrist for several years about my problems and he's convinced that all I have is somatisation disorder. This angers me because I know that the physical effects I feel are very real and his diagnosis is necessary because of the absence of a proper medical diagnostic method for what is physically wrong with me. I must stress, it's a horrible feeling. This combination of excessive alcohol and sleep deprivation makes it extremely difficult for one to have a full nights sleep even many weeks or months or even years after the event. I can go weeks, going to sleep every night but waking up within a couple of hours, unable to enter the last and most important stage of sleep

The implications this sleep deprivation may have had for my physical health now and in my later years likely to be significant. perhaps I'm being abit of a hypochondriac but chronic insomnia buts alot of strain on ones body.

The worst part of chronic insomnia is the feeling I have in the center of my head. I have it almost constantly, it's like a liquid is oozing out of the center of my skul, it just seems more fluid up there. I started to wonder if this was secretion of melatonin by the penial gland, it was at that point I thought I must be going crazy lol.

I also have a twitch on my face that never goes away. It's only visible if I scrunch my face up though.

Supposed 14:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Overestimates of sleep deprivation?

I have read in popular magazines and newspapers that the amount of sleep deprivation and insomnia in the US is overestimated, at least when it is based on self-reporting. That is to say, people overestimate the time it takes them to fall asleep and underestimate the time they stay asleep. I even remember reading somewhere that people who claim to need little sleep may be exaggerating; for instance, when motion sensors were placed on people who claimed to be early morning risers, there was no motion, implying that they stayed in bed. I know that's a poor description but I read about this a while back. In the US, sleeping less and getting up early are considered to be desirable (shows you are industrious and productive), while sleeping more and sleeping late are undesirable (shows you are lazy). I hope someone knows about actual studies and can add them to the article. Also, should a reality show be called an "experiment"? Maestlin 21:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's an article which says that the claim in the opening paragraph of the article is incorrect: i.e., that one fourth of the adult US population is sleep-deprived, though this article supports the claim.

Savio MIT electronics 16:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Study conclusions too wide? (2006-08-06)

Between 16 and 60 percent? Can this even be cited for providing valuable information with such a wide margin of conclusion?

This seems a stupidly vague statistic. Either provide some evidence to back it up or remove it.

Lack of References

Are you advocating the use of the ugly tag at the top of the page for every article that could use a couple more references? I was under the impression that tag should be saved for articles lacking ANY sources. This article has sources, it could just use a few more. And the places that could use more references are clearly labeled. Why the need for the huge tag? Fieari 20:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The tag was added on October 1, 2006 when there were basically no references. Then after I added about 25 references or so, I left it there in case there were any other parts of the article that needed referencing. But at this point, it's probably a good idea to get rid of it. Latitude0116 06:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Why is sleep deprivation on TV needed?

I feel as though this section: "The Nickelodeon American animated television series The Fairly Odd Parents episode Beddy Bye had Timmy wishing no one could sleep. The residents of Dimmesdale suffered extreme fatigue for thirty days.

The Cartoon Network American animated television series Codename: Kids Next Door had an episode where Numbuh 1 went six days without sleep."

compromises the integrity of the entire article. Not only is the spelling horrendous, but why on earth are shows from a kid's TV channel being cited in the article at all? There is really no need, it adds nothing to the value or credibility of the article. If anything, it decreases the credibility. I think the section should be removed completely. sjbullock07 02:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I would agree, and have no problems with removing it. Fieari 23:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Recovery From (2006-11-10)

I want to write a section on Recovering from sleep deprivation but I need some help with citations. I can find only very little on the Dr. side of this but there is enough consistent information from the patient side to warrant it useful. At the least it is all harmless, common-sense type stuff so it isn't likely to get in the way of any other treatment prescribed. Can anyone help hunt these down with me?Should I put it here first, and post to the article after we have some?

Untitled thread (2006-11-25)

hi guys

I realize that science doesn't yet understand what exactly sleep -is-, but if it's a chemical thing, couldn't delicate brain structures or neural networks be damaged?

If rats can die from SD, then why can't humans? Or do the rats die from something else, like infection, exhaustion, etc?

In the case of Fatal Familial Insomnia, I don't think it's the lack of sleep that kills. I think it's the prions in the brain or some other specific complication of the illness.

If someone could go indefinitely without sleep, and then just return to normal after getting some sleep, then is SD really dangerous? Is sleep even a truly vital need? [It's obviously a -functional- need, but is it a VITAL need where you'll directly die without it?]

I do believe SD more than a few days is torture, and it does seem that it could cause chemical or structural brain damage. But it would be nice if someone had some real information on this. I'd also like to know how exactly interrogators deprive someone of sleep. Seems like someone determined to sleep could steal several seconds at a time through almost anything. Tragic romance 09:29, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

People have died from SD. 65.40.239.99 06:39, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

people have not died from SD.

see how futile unreferenced statements are? --141.157.106.115 17:30, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

AFAIK, sleep deprivation can theoretically contribute to death, through effects on immune system, stress and so forth, but mostly, it would just be shortening your life span, unless you have a heart condition or something, I think. But, as anon #2 said, we need refs to say anything about it. FFI is fatal, yes, but that is due to plaque accumulation in the brain, not sleep deprivation itself. It's certainly dangerous, though, as some of the complications can be dangerous; for instance, depression is a common complication of long-term lack of (or absence of) sleep, which has about 15% likelyhood of resulting in a successful suicide if considered in terms of lifetime prevalence.

Complete sleep deprivation for a week or so is very mild torture by itself, but could probably amplify the effects of other kinds of torture, although I've only experienced voluntary SD for about 5 days, so I couldn't comment. As for how, it's simple enough, really... just keep them awake and tense. It takes a lot for a person to sleep while being bossed around. And seconds at a time isn't something that really counts as sleep, as it lacks significant restorative effects. For interrogation, I imagine it is vital that microsleep should occur, since it can be prolonged for much longer without the same degree of mental impairment (psychosis, etc.). Zuiram 00:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

To the poster above, if you die because of things that happen to your body and immune system because of SD, then you can die of SD. I don't think it is possible to keep someone constantly awake for say a year and for them to live out even a 10th of that year. You would just drop dead and there are credible sources that suggest that as well as historical sources that confirm it. The problem is that no one really wants to kill people in such an elaborate way and when people die themselves of it, it is usually while drinking, taking drugs or even sitting at an internet cafe for five days straight playing a MMORPG. It is definately worth mentioning at the very least that there are strong indications that SD can cause death. Ever wonder why no one has ever stayed awake for more than 19 days? And for that matter, why isn't that fact mentioned on this page? I think this page needs a major restructure, but that is the case for most of wikipedia, and if I tried to do it I would certainly make a mess of it. But if anyone else is interested I will actively join in. Wouldn't you believe it, I read this page because I need sleep ^_^ Goodnight JayKeaton 07:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

you smell

I don't know how racism would result from lack of sleep

Who the heck wrote that in there? Apoptygma 08:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

In the United States sleep deprivation is common with students due to the fact that almost all schools begin early in the morning, forcing students to get less sleep than they normally would

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but the logic of this statement doesn't follow. Schools aren't forcing students to get less sleep (since they could compensate by going to bed earlier)

"In most studies, the issues of parental responsibility over their children's lifestyle was not introduced, a rather alarming omission." In which studies? Alarming to who? This sounds more like the author's personal viewpoint of what was included in the studies.

It doesn't work that way. Children -might- be able to get to bed sooner, but adolescents cannot. Different circadian rhythms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.63.142 (talk) 16:21, 10 January 2008 (UTC)