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Archive 1

Cleanup needed: The section on "pseudo-homosexuality" is extremely dubious

I don't know quite where to begin. The "pseudo-homosexuality" section seems to be only talking about men, but it never says this explicitly. It just assumes it. As if "homosexual" meant "gay man" or "man who has sex with men", and every reader would already know this and agree.

I don't even understand the logic behind the psychobabble about "the fantasy of incorporation of the penis". What is the incorporation of the penis? Is that where the penis signs legal documents and is recognized by the government as a business enterprise? "Welcome to My Penis, Inc."

Where did this crap about patients in psychotherapy questioning their orientation come from? That needs a citation, or better yet, immediate deletion. I will delete it myself if someone convincing doesn't pipe up.

The whole section is also extremely pretentious. Do we really need the etymology of the prefix "pseudo"? Why the mention of sociopathy? Here are some more words that seemed extremely pretentious and unnecessary: "putatively", "abeyance", "encampments", "nebulous", and "vocational". I like to air out the big words in my vocabulary from time to time, but the result doesn't belong in a Wikipedia article.76.118.39.39 (talk) 15:31, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Some of the statements in question have since been removed or altered. I also just tried to further improve that section a little (along with general copy-editing to the article) and to reduce the number of unnecessarily uncommon or complex terms in it. I also added a "clarify" and "by whom" tag to some of the statements. Diff is [here]. I can't help but wonder if it the section referred to above was directly copied from a psychiatry paper or somewhere. I think it still needs some additional work. -MsBatfish (talk) 08:03, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not an expert of human sexuality, except for what I have personally experienced as a homosexual male. This is not an area of human knowledge with much data surrounding it, however a legitimate source of information on this specific subject is included for adding to the article (Dr. Joe Kort). I will briefly use personal experience and knowledge knowing that it collaborates with the source, and with the hopes that it will point people editing the article in the right direction.

With that said, I have experienced many things that are out of the norm and the some people may deny even exist. One example of this, an idea often vigorously denied but that I have experienced countless times, is the idea of a heterosexual male engaging in homosexual activity in ways that may give some reason to suspect it is more than experimentation. While it is true that some men who are heterosexual in orientation will experiment with other heterosexual men or even homosexual men; others go as far as to have a minor or unofficial relationship with another man who is homosexual in orientation. What prompted me to write this was how poorly written, and incorrect, the explanation was in regards to this behavior from a heterosexual male. I also believe that for the many, many people in the world who have a vested-interest in the idea that a person is either "gay", "straight" or "bisexual", an explanation for this type of behavior in heterosexual males should be added to the article. Also, a link to the Wiki article under sexuality that describes the minute ways that deviations human sexuality can occur in, such as sexual attraction, emotional attraction, pansexuality, and asexuality, should be added. More emphasis should be placed on the fact that heterosexual orientation and to a degree, homosexual activity, are entirely reconcilable ideas.

The defining difference between a closeted homo- or bi- sexual male and, a true heterosexual male who is comfortable enough to accept admiration / pleasure from a homosexual male is entirely in the nature of the desire. One desires women sexually, but has no qualms accepting what he will see as purely physical pleasure from a male. The other desires men sexually, and is entirely engaged in the act - despite the heterosexual being only engaged in the sensation, even possibly daydreaming elsewhere. However, this is far from being the only situation where homosexual activity may occur with a heterosexual male male is involved. One such area is sexual abuse in childhood. Homosexuality having a genetic component to it, no one can be made gay. On the other hand, a heterosexual male sexually abused by another male and therefore confused and also wanting to seek out and relive that trauma, on their terms, is something that happens quite often. In my personal life, this very situation has caused me great loss and suffering because I was the openly gay male; therefore the only one with feelings towards it and certainty about myself. My straight "friend" took years to decide he was indeed straight and to tell me where years of hot/cold, hurtfull behavior stemmed from (very sick sexual abuse as a young boy).

To fully understand this one of many reasons why straight men may have sex with men outside of my personal experience, please see the referenced website. He is a Doctor of human sexuality with his PhD in Clinical Sexology. He is somewhat of a specialist in this specific area, despite the lack of understanding the general population and many psychologists have surrounding it. His findings match many of my life's experiences "to a T." Before you write him off for whatever reason, please visit the "Reasons Straight Men Have Sex With Men" part of his website. I have lived some of these things, and unconvered a few of the same exact reasons Dr. Kort lists. (Some very sad and personal to me, as I described, but we ended up good friends and only friends.) I digress.

This is not an area of wide-experience, even for most gay men. My wish is to shed more light on this confusing aspec of human sexuality, that for years, plagued me with confusion over reasoning of my own. It is important that all men who act homoerotically not be constantly told they are gay and to accept it, because a few reasons straight guys have sex with guys (SGSG as Dr. Kort terms it), stems from things like sexual abuse in childhood and the need to resolve that by acting it out again. This leads to confusion, when these men are straight and simply need to work through their trauma. Society's view that you're gay, straight, or lying is detrimental in many ways and especially to this uncommon niche. There are as many as five other reasons given by Dr. Kort that this behavior might occur.

The link to his website is as follows: www.straightguise.com

"Here are some reasons given by Dr. Kort - many have their own page for further explanation:

Sexual Abuse

Homosexual Imprinting

Men who are sex workers/male escorts

Sex for Money

Men seeking intensely arousing but shameful experiences

First Sexual Experience

High Sex Drive

Availability/Opportunity

Father Hunger

Narcissism

Sexual Addiction

Cuckolds

Exhibitionists

Voyeurs

Hazing

Sex in Prison

Humiliation

BDSM (Bondage and Discipline, Sadism & Masochism)

Fetishism

Homosexual Obsessive Compulsive Disorder


RELATED AREAS WHICH ARE NOT ABOUT STRAIGHT MEN: Openly Gay Men Closeted homosexual Hetero-Emotional and Homo-Sexual Men Bisexual: www.straightguise.com


71.230.59.13 (talk) 17:52, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

This entire section (quoted below) is based on psychodynamic (Freudian) speculation with little to know research, evidence, or data to back it up. Until Dr. Kort or whoever can provide research data confirming his hypotheses, recommend removal. "Due to its somewhat vague nature, pseudo-homosexuality may be claimed as a defense by heterosexual men who feel some insecurity or doubt concerning their own masculine role in any area of behavior—sexual, social, or vocational. Anxiety about being homosexual is sometimes interpreted[by whom?] as a symbolic reflection of failure in masculine aspiration and competitive defeat in power struggles[clarification needed]. In such cases, the true homosexual motivation, if present at all, is very temporary.

The notion of pseudo-homosexuality is important as it provides a possible explanation for homosexual anxieties and fantasies among patients undergoing psychotherapy. It offers an alternative interpretation of fantasies which were earlier understood to be the expression of the repressed homosexual component of our biological innate bisexuality."


[edit] See also — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.68.249.150 (talk) 18:45, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

This whole article is extremely dubious

This seems to be about bisexuals who are in denial. If you are a man and you, of your own volition, fantasize about other men, you're not straight. If you are a woman and you, of your own volition, fantasize about other women, you're not straight. You need only breeze through the Kinsey articles to see how many people claim to be heterosexual, while in the same breath admitting to being attracted to both sexes. That is, they are bisexual. Bisexuals are attracted to both sexes. It doesn't have to be "equal" levels of attraction. What a strange article this is. It is sad that people are so ashamed and in denial that we have to invent weird ideas like "situational sexual behaviour". If you have consensual sex with someone of the same sex, you are not straight. Rather, I should say that if you are not disgusted by it, and enjoy it, that is your orientation. As any bisexual could tell you that after "experimenting" in college, it is much easier, socially, to self-identify as heterosexual (much easier to hide, after all) than deal with the mental anguish of "coming out". This article doesn't so much need a "GLBT expert" as a dose of common sense. 99.246.173.92 (talk) 19:56, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

It is not about bisexuals who are in denial. Just because a man or a woman has sex with someone of the same sex as them...it does not mean that they are "bisexual." What sometimes irks me is people always equating sexual pleasure with true sexual attraction. If a person has sex with a sex toy, is that person truly sexually attracted to it? No (at least not in usual cases). The same goes for a person sexually substituting the sex they do not want for the sex they truly want. There have plenty of gay men who have admitted to getting sexual pleasure from having sex with women before "coming out of the closet"; a lot of these men stated that they fantasized about having sex with men during the acts. Thus, why should we call these men bisexual simply because they were not completely repulsed by having sex with women enough to not get some type of pleasure out of it, especially in the cases where the male body was on their minds? This type of thing is exactly what happens in prison with some heterosexual males and females. Some heterosexual men in prison, due to not having access to women, substitute men in place of women, often going for the most feminine-looking men while trying their best to pretend that those men are women. Additionally, most cases I have known or studied of "sexually experimenting in college" tend to be people who actually lean more toward a sexual attraction for the same sex rather than the opposite sex and who are usually women (Lesbian until graduation). People also have different definitions of what bisexuality is, clearly. While it is seen as correct by some to state that bisexuality is not always or hardly ever 50/50 sexual attraction, others feel that bisexuality should be classified as 50/50 sexual attraction...because they feel that no one is 100% heterosexual or 100% homosexual; what they call "true bisexuality" (50/50 equal sexual attraction) cannot exist, as far as they are concerned. While I myself have concluded more than once that no one is 100% heterosexual or 100% homosexual, I do not feel that people should expect bisexuality to be defined as 50/50. Nor do I feel that everyone should be called bisexual. Flyer22 (talk) 06:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Flyer22 You raise a really good point which unfortunately most people don't understand. If we define sexual orientation by sexual attraction and not behavior, it is easier to comprehend. Sadly there is a double standard applied to homosexuality still that has people defining others as "gay" or "bi" simply because they have had some type of sexual contact with the same sex. But if we are clear that orientation describes the innate attraction that is part of our biology, then it possible to understand how people can have homosexual contact in varying contexts, for various reasons, without (necessarily) being homo or bisexual. This is a very important distinction in understanding the continuum of sexuality.EyePhoenix (talk) 05:10, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Hey there, EyePhoenix. Good points on your end as well. Flyer22 (talk) 16:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Not really trustworthy...

Sexual orientation may vary from sexual behavior and/or sexual activities. This might be discussed. There can be both "pseudo-heterosexuality" and "pseudo-homosexuality" (a bit 'clinical' and 'labeling' definitions though they are). Anyway, the whole style of the article is not that clear... I'd suggest this to be corrected by a third person... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.70.3.116 (talk) 12:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Some sources which could be used to expand the article

I just did some general cleanup/copy-editing of the article, but I think it definitely needs some more work. I don't have time just now to make significant changes to the article, but I thought I would collect a few potential sources here that others might want to use and/or I can use when I have more time.

Another place to look, particularly for info on non-homosexual situational sexuality, would be sources relating to Sex tourism.

Prison sexuality, a related topic, also needs a lot of work. But we could check out it's references to see if any might be useful for this article. Perhaps there should be a section in this article on Prison sexuality?

An interesting article on homosexual people exhibiting situational heterosexuality, although I don't know if it is a reliable/independent enough source for inclusion in a Wikipedia article: http://gayambassador.blogspot.com/2010/04/most-misunderstood-concept-in-ex-gay.html

This list is just a few of the potential sources I was able to quickly find. So I'm sure there are plenty out there. MsBatfish (talk) 08:27, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, MsBatfish. Flyer22 (talk) 00:47, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

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