Talk:Sinterklaas

zwarte piet (black pete)

Zwarte piet never really existed (Sint Nicolaas did). Other then mentioned, Zwarte Piet was introduced around 1850, so not during the middle ages! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.250.190.29 (talk) 16:41, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Zwarte Piet is a 19th century cleansing of earlier companion figures (possibly dating back to the Ravens of Odin, some scholars link that to the black color), as the article clearly states. So strangely enough, Zwarte Piet is the product of political correctness. (just a 19th century kind that tried to eliminate non-christian aspects).

I always thought the slave aspect far fetched because traditionally he is in charge of the punishing of bad children, and actually carries Fasces (de roe(de)) for that. You don't hand slaves symbols of authority and given them jobs with authority. Moreover, even mid 19th century, slavery was on the way out. 88.159.78.61 (talk) 17:03, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

remark- I am not really familiar with the reviewing aspect of wikipedia, so I'm not sure if this is the right place and if it is my place to do so; I would like however to plead for removing the line "but the tradition appears to date back at least as far as the early 19th Century." The 1850 Jan Schenkman book is verifiable, the line diluting the sentiment that Schenkman as the one who invented Zwarte Piet is not however. Seeing as Wikipedia is the source many people turn to for information, and seeing as Wikipedia as a project ants to be a trusted source, I don't understand why this would be appropriate. The verb "appears" is a good indication that this is just an accepted rumour, not fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1811:C192:4300:8CD:1E46:A38F:7354 (talk) 19:11, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Untitled

Celebration of Sinterklaas is the celebration of his name day, which was the day of Nicolas' death!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.161.252.154 (talk) 08:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Sinter/Santa

In one paragraph it begins by stating, "Contrary to popular belief, Sinterklaas is not the basis for the North American figure of Santa Claus." Then the paragraph goes on to describe exactly how and when Sinterklaas became Santa Claus in American. I'm taking out the first sentence since it's not cited or explained at all, and is also ridiculous. Santa is clearly this same guy. Noit (talk) 16:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Well Sinterklaas ain't fat! :D 77.251.46.60 (talk) 20:23, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm Dutch, so I know. Sinterklaas is not santa clause. Santa claus is called de kerstman in the netherlands — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.10.75.131 (talk) 10:41, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm Dutch too. Sante Clause (christmas father) is something that is getting poulair in the Netherlands too, but only because it is populair in foreign countries. It seems that Sinterklaas was brought by colonists to the US, and finaly became Santa Clause (christmas). Santa Claus was then imported to the Netherlands again. In The Netherlands we celebrate both, although Sinterklaas is far more poulair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.250.190.29 (talk) 16:38, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Partial view

"The children, up to an age of usually seven or eight years, almost religiously believe in Sinterklaas. They think that he actually lives forever and that he comes from Spain, that he knows everything about the children and that his Zwarte Pieten do come down through chimneys. The period between his arrival and December 5 is therefore very exciting."

This seems not non neutral pov to me and assumptious. I did not believe in Santa Claus when I was young and I doubt all children believe in Sinterklaas. Genjix 11:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The wording doesn't imply all children believe — just that it is typical for them to do so. Research shows that about two-thirds of Dutch families celebrate Sinterklaas.--MWAK 08:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm Dutch myself. I can tell almost every kid in the Netherlands believes in Sinterklaas. There are very very few children who don't. I believed in it too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.10.75.131 (talk) 12:46, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

To tell the truth: real, hard-core Dutch Protestants hate Sinterklaas, Santa and Christmas, as popish propaganda. According to them a Christmas tree is Pagan at best and Satanic at worst. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:28, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

david sedaris

there has to be at least a link to David Sedaris´story - "Six to Eight Black Men", which comically looks at these traditions from an American perspective. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by John.i.buckeye (talk • contribs) 14:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC).

Original

Why is there no mention of the Original St Nicolas. His Birthdate and the day he passed away. And that he was the Bishop of Myra (Turkey), but we (the Dutch and Belgians) heard of him through the Spanish who occupied us and so we naturally assumed he must have been from Spain. And that he was very a giving man (especially to the poor), that's why he gives presents on his birthday instead of recieving them. And we always eat pepernoten when we cellebrate Sinterklaas, which look like horse droppings, coz besides gifts that's what people found when Sinterklaas had paid a visit.

St. Nicholas: http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=38

Pepernoten: http://www.directrecipes.com/archives/dec/02_Dec_97_Pepernoten.html

http://images.google.nl/images?&num=10&hl=nl&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-19,GGLD:en&btnG=Google+zoeken&lr=lang_en&as_ft=i&as_qdr=all&as_dt=i&as_rights=&safe=images&sa=N&tab=wi&q=pepernoten —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Whatsit (talk • contribs) 21:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC).

So change it, instead of adding a POV marker. I am removing the POV tag. Improve the article instead of giving it a POV tag. --Daniel575 | (talk) 00:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The Dutch heard of Sinterklaas through Spain because the relics arrived in Bari in 1087 (11th century) and Bari later formed part of the Spanish/Aragonese Kingdom of Naples and the Two Sicilies until the eighteenth century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.235.168.115 (talk) 22:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

review

This article has a template saying it contains unverified claims / lacks resources.

I have tried to review this article, and as an inhabitant of the netherlands i'll try to spot anything which seems doubtful or wrong.

overview

• In the Netherlands, Sint Nicolaas, Sinterklaas' eve is the occasion for gift-giving. *:Doubtful statement. Birthdays are tradtional coccasions to give presents. Sinterklaas is an occasion to give presents, but only under certain conditions. A better intro would be: In the Netherlands, Sint Nicolaas, Sinterklaas' eve is a folklore party evening, or something like it.
  • Well, that IS the essential of this folklore: giving presents to eachother. So the wording is correct.
    • I concur. The Bishop of Myra is holy because he gave gifts to the poor children. In this (commercialised) tradition, Sinterklaas comes to the children on Sinterklaas eve to give them presents (if they've been good, but the latter doesn't apply so much nowadays.)

Sinterklaas

• called Amerigo or Slechtweervandaag (Badweathertoday)

  The name Amerigo is mentioned on several websites. Slechtweervandaag is also mentioned on one website as his donkey, other, mainly Belgian websites, mention it as his horse.

About the name of the donkey/horse of Sinterklaas, I've seen the series and yes in Belgium it's quite commonly known a Slechtweervandaag. Tough I think the name is slowly decreasing in usage. As no new shows in Belgium were made ever since (with a decent influence, I can't recall any) and a lot of kids watched Dutch shows. So names like Amerigo are also used over here. There's no real name tough, just names from tv shows wich are used and later slowly fade away. Also I always tough it was horse, a type called a schimmel. It's a grey horse with white spots. I know Slechtweervandaag and Amerigo were.

Slechtweervandaag was the name of his horse in a Belgian TV show back in 92/93. It remained that way in the minds of people since... (Anonymous - 04:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC))

unless alzheimer is hitting rather badly today, I seem to remember 'slechtweervandaag' being used as the horses name during the yearly official arrival of Sinterklaas in Antwerp 193.190.154.1 (talk) 14:52, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Coming from Spain

About the fact that he comes form Spain is because, I believe (will check it later), that however he lived in Turkey, he was later buried in Rome Italy. Than because of the Spanish influence people started to be mistaken about this. And Spain became quickly Sint Niklaas' home.

I have always been taught people tell he's from Spain because back in the day people's knowledge of geography was quite limited. As people were uneducated, the most distant country (from the Netherlands) beyond France was Spain. DWizzy 11:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

See the article Saint Nicholas. Saint Nicholas is a famous saint in the Greek-Orthodox and Catholic tradtion. The relics of the Saint were taken from Myra to Bari in southern Italy in 1087, where they have remained since. In the Dutch tradition, Saint Nicholas is said to come from Spain, and from its capital Madrid. The reason for the association with "Spain" is obvious. Bari was under Spanish rule from the 16th until the 18th century as part of the Kingdom of Naples. The tradition that Saint Nicholas lived in Spain explains how the association of Black Peter with "Moors" got started in the Netherlands. Some of the muslim Moors who lived in Spain until the 17th century were black. (Remember Shakespeare's black Othello, also a "Moor".)

Italy was ruled by Spain but not during the 11th century. At this time, in 1035, the Kingdom of Aragon was established during the Christian Reconquest of Spain (which ended up in 1492). The Kingdom of Aragon along with the Kingdom of Castile will form the Kingdom of Spain under the "Catholic Monarchs" rules. The expansion of the Aragonese Crown will include initially the kingdoms of Aragon, Valencia, Mallorca and the counties of Catalonia, Cerdanya, Roussillon and the lordship of Montpellier. And since the 13th century also began the proyection of the Aragonese Crown through the Mediterranean... Corsica, Sardinia, duchies of Athens and Neopatria until 1388, and the kingdoms of Sicily (from 13th century) and Naples (from 15th century). Bari belonged to this kingdom until the 18th century. The Spanish Netherlands were ruled since Charles V (the only grandson of the "Catholic Monarchs"), was elected Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire in 1519 until the Treaty of Utrecht 1713, and is during this time when there is such influence coming from Bari, a city in the Spanish Kingdom of Naples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.235.168.115 (talk) 00:19, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Part of the standard fare Sinterklaas brought me - apart from toys, marzipan and chocolate - was mandarin oranges. December happens to be the season for mandarin oranges; and the most likely source for mandarin oranges is Spain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.224.147.8 (talk) 12:00, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

As far as I know mandarin oranges belong to Sint Maarten. --Ajv39 (talk) 12:45, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

"Belong" would seem a little strict. They just happen to be a common thing in the last months of the year, rather than being specifically connected to a particular holiday.Drabkikker (talk) 13:32, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Zwarte Piet

In many other countries, Saint Nicholas has helpers who look like devil-like, covered in soot, and who carry rods to beat children and sacks to abduct them in if they misbehave. This is a way of disciplining the children. If the saint's servant or slave looked sooty according to the earlier tradition, it must have been a relatively small step to turn him into a "moorish" / negro servant or slave. The Dutch involvement in the slave trade and racist "darky" stereoptypes also clearly played a role in the development of "Zwarte Piet". Traditionally, Zwarte Piet was not only threatening but also childlike, generous (he also gives presents), playful and acrobatic (perfoming stunts on the roof while delivering presnents). He thus matched a racist "negro" stereotype. See also the article blackface on darky iconography. "Zwarte Piet" is also mentioned there.

• colourful Moorish dresses, dating back two centuries.

  The Moorish is doubtful. Using the dutch language wiki as a source, there are several possible origins of Zwarte Piet: a) captured devil b) Italian chimneysweeper c) Moorish helper d) black slave boy bought into freedom by sinterklaas

  The same sentence doesnt make clear what dates back two centuries: the black piet or his dress. The Dutch wiki calls it early 17th century looking cloths. That's not 2 centuries. I am not an expert in clothes, so I dare not estimate.

• • • It is if you take the Zwarte Piet is a 19th century creation view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.53.234.50 (talk) 15:56, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

• his origins were in the devil figure

  see above.

• Traditionally Saint Nicholas only had one helper, whose name varied wildly. "Piet(er)" the name in use now can be traced back to a book from 1891

  According to http://www.kinderboekenwereld.nl/pages/specials/sinterklaas-van-a-tot-z.php Black Pete appears in Sinterklaas boeken from the middle of the 19th century. The book "`St. Nicolaas Geschenk voor Neerlands Jeugd´(1800)" doesnt mention Black Pete. The book mentioned there with the first mention of Black eter is by Schenkman, ca. 1845. The same site mentions the 1891 book as the first book where the name "Zwarte piet" is mentioned, I have added this as a reference.

When I was a child, the Black Peters were also taught to me as Moors from Spain. It can also be found in many childrens books about Sinterklaas. Probably because it were the only black people (the then Habsburgian/Spanish) Netherlands knew before the Age of Discovery, (and maybe on inland Dutch soil quite a while longer).

Note that Black Peter was toned down because of two different political correctnesses. Not only discrimination, but already earlier because it wasn't deemed enlightened anymore to scare the children so much. (Mothers used to scare children for weeks that they would be taken to Spain by Santa and/or get no presents)

88.159.74.100 (talk) 08:48, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

1941 movie showing multiple zwarte pieten prior to the arrival of canadians which the article claims have introduced this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cafx3d60_yo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.212.166.78 (talk) 17:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Arrival

Missing: his arrival is broadcasted on telly.

Shoe

• Missing: origins.
• Children are also told that in the worst case they would be put in the gunny sack should be moved to black pete paragraph.

Pakjesavond

• Missing: the packaging of presents as surprise
• It's not just a family affair, it's also celebrated at sport-clubs, etc.
• Typical presents include .... Just minor presnts, mainly sweets, are mentioned here. Many families use it as an occasion to give larger presents, comparible with birthday presents.
• The sentence But the presents may be too big or too man can not be well unerstood from the previous part, as only small presents are mentioned in the preceding paragraph.

TeunSpaans 17:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Not sure about 'packages' as translation of 'pakjes'. Don't you think 'presents' would be more suitable?  Rosalien  14:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm Dutch, and packages are not pakjes. Presents — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.10.75.131 (talk) 10:44, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Christmas?

In the text it says that the Christmas gift-giving is a bigger occasion than Sinterklaas gift-giving, but it's not. On the contrary, The santa claus is given hardly any attention. I live in Belgium and Christmas always was bigger when I was younger. But I never believed in Santa Claus but I did believe in Sinterklaas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.241.214.123 (talk) 19:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Move to Santa Claus??

Someone added a template suggesting moving this article to the Santa Claus article. But there is no discussion here, so I removed the template. In stead I suggest moving Santa Claus to a subsection of this article. After all, Sinterklaas is the original. Of course I'm joking, but the suggestion was ridiculous, so I feel I should ridicule it back. :) DirkvdM 18:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I am 100% in agreement with you here. Ridiculous merger proposal. - Jvhertum 20:11, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It is User:The Wild Falcon who proposed it the 2nd time and perhaps the first. Should he do it the third time I'm advocating for a warning or a ban. --Stalfur 11:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

That's a bit much, isn't it? Jvhertum 13:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Not when he adds the template to an article repeatedly without giving any reason for why it should be moved. Then it is clearly spam or defacement of the article. --Stalfur 16:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

'Recent' commotion?

It's been in the news during the past few years: some people think the concept of Sinterklaas and his zwarte pieten reminds us too much of a history of slavery and the Dutch colonial past. A rich white man with a band of black followers. The commotion was minor though, and I'm not sure if there'd be reliable sources on this anywhere. --MooNFisH 21:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree; the commotion has not been minor at all, and the debate flares up every year. I added a (hopefully neutral enough) addition to this effect, also adding something about how the festival is celebrated in the former colonies, where I grew up as a child.

Recently the commotion has shifted focus to the Christian imagery and the Muslim perception of same. I just like any excuse for a party, and I am undecided (nor do I particularly care) about the origins of the Petes, but I do feel it deserves a mention.

For backup, a simple search of recent news should do the trick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KzoneDD (talk • contribs) 02:37, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

arrivals

Is use usefull to put the arrivals from Sinterklaas in the Netherlands in this article?

year	place
1952 t/m 1959	Amsterdam
1960	Rotterdam
1961 t/m 1963	Amsterdam
1964	Hoorn
1965	Leeuwarden *
1966	Harlingen *
1967	Medemblik *
1968	Veere *
1969	Enkhuizen *
1970	Volendam *
1971	Monnickendam *
1972	Willemstad *
1973	Hoorn *
1974	Enkhuizen *
1975	Vlissingen *
1976	Scheveningen *

year	place
1977	Muiden *
1978	Medemblik *
1979	Rotterdam *
1980	Veere *
1981	Hindeloopen *
1982	Marken *
1983	Hoorn *
1984	Terschelling *
1985	Heusden *
1986	Zutphen **
1987	Schoonhoven **
1988	Zierikzee **
1989	Gorinchem **
1990	Elburg **
1991	Hindeloopen **
1992	Dordrecht **

year	place
1993	Ravenstein **
1994	Monnickendam **
1995	Doesburg **
1996	Harlingen **
1997	Enkhuizen **
1998	Wijk bij Duurstede **
1999	Hattem **
2000	Woudrichem **
2001	Maastricht **
2002	Zaltbommel **
2003	Zwolle **
2004	Alkmaar **
2005	Sneek **
2006	Middelburg **
2007	Kampen **

no stars = Jan Gajentaan —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mweites (talk • contribs) 18:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

one star = Adrie van Oorschot

two stars = Bram van der Vlugt

Partial view, 2

"It is also celebrated to a lesser extent in parts of France (North, Alsace, Lorraine), as well as in Luxembourg, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Croatia, Romania, the Czech Republic and the town of Trieste in Italy. "

St Nicholas is the patron Saint of Lorraine. 6th December was more important than the Christmas until recently. Not sure the "lesser extent" would apply there.

I added now the information about Italy but, more generally, I am not sure what "lesser extent" means in the interpretation of authors and, more importantly, of readers. In my hometown, Trieste, San Nicolò is considered quite importantly by citizens and children in particular who receive gifts from him. It was more important than Santa Claus and only in the last decades this changed a bit. Morbin (talk) 10:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you're right, I don't know the situation in Italy, but for example here in Belgium it still is THE most important day of the year for most children, even more than christmas.--Lamadude (talk) 18:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Only one picture?

The picture of Sinterklaas is that of the dutch 'version'. Isn't there any picture of the flemish 'version'? It would be nice to let it see what difference there is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bvman (talk • contribs) 19:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not know if there is any difference at all, other then that the Flemish Sinterklaas speaks with a soft "g" pronounced differently and lands in a Flemish town rather then in the Netherlands. I can hardly imagine much change... Do the Belgians have a Zwarte Piet figure, by the way? J.B. (talk) 12:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

In Flanders there are Zwarte Pieten as well, I don't know about any differences other than the ones allready mentioned in the article: gifts are delivered during the night from 5 to 6 december and found by the children on the 6th, not given to them by their parents. And Sinterklaas can be a little more severe sometimes, though he is nearly always nice as well. --Lamadude (talk) 18:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, in Flanders there is a "Zwarte Piet", too. I was Sinterklaas a couple of years. 1980's. We drove to a few families' homes, and were met by one of the parents. The parents would give you toys to give to the children and a piece of paper with the names of the children and their behavior ("studies well. needs to clean his room more often. Doesn't like to eat xxx". Things like that) . You hid the paper in a big book you were carrying. Once the parent was back inside the house, you knocked on the door, and the children opened the door. Once inside, you opened the big book, and started reading from the cheat sheet. Zwarte Piet menaces to put him in the bag, but you end up taking toys out of the bag, and give it to the child. Then you leave, until next year. It was fun, and the children were impressed by the costume. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.224.147.8 (talk) 12:16, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

stoeltje zetten

When I was young, we didn't have pakjesavond for the smallest of the children. Instead, we would put out a children's chair near the fireplace, instead of a shoe, on the early evening of the 5th, before going to bed. Next morning (sixth of december) the chair would be full of presents (and also underneath it). I don't know however if this was an invention of my parents or if other little children did this as well. We lived in the Northwest of Holland.--Satrughna (talk) 17:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Flanders. Early 1970. I was told to put some carrots in a clog next to the chimney, as food for the horse. In the morning the carrots had disappeared, which proved beyond doubt the existence of Sinterklaas. And that his horse had a healthy appetite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.224.147.8 (talk) 12:06, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Removal of insulting text

When reading the wiki I have noticed someone had changed the text in an insulting way. Among others inserted the f-word multiple times. I have removed/changed these texts, but it is possible I missed somes texts or my change was not completely correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EJYW (talk • contribs) 11:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Section about WWII

Sinterklaas is hundreds years old and the section only wrote that Sinterklaas continued during WWII. I think this is not notable and clearly ndue weight. Andries (talk) 18:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Because this article pertains to Dutch history and culture, the section on Sinterklaas in WWII is appropriate; and besides, it is quite interesting, not to mention notable, and provides a window into a crucial period in Dutch history. :There is no need to censor it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dominee (talk • contribs) 19:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The object of this article is to inform about Sinterklaas. It is irrelevant that the story about Sinterklaas during WWII (which is far too long) "provides a window into a crucial period in Dutch history." Andries (talk) 19:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Saint Martin

In certain regions of Flanders (and perhaps some parts of the Netherlands as well?) the children's friend bringing presents etc... is not Sinterklaas but Sint-Maarten (see:St._Martin's_Day), although this tradition is slowly being replaced by Sinterklaas, that is slowly being replaced by Santa Claus (or Father Xmas)... --Felix Atagong (talk) 10:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

This is incorrect: Sint-Maarten (11th November) is arguably being replaced by Halloween (31st October). At Sint-Maarten children receive candy for singing songs, they don't receive presents. Each year the total revenues of shop keepers show new record sales around Sinterklaas. There are no signs that Sinterklaas is being replaced by Santa Claus.

Odin

I remember reading about a connection between Sinterklaas and the Norse god Odin. He used to ride on his eight legged white horse, Sleipnir, accompanied by two ravens, Huginn and Muninn, who listened at chimneys and reported everything happening in the world to Odin. I think there's even a story of him giving gifts to children, but I can't find a reference at the moment. The theory is that Sleipnir turned into Amerigo while the ravens turned into Black Petes, sometime when the legend was christined. The article now has a lonely reference to the ravens. We either need tom flesh this out, or remove the reference altogether. I'll see what I can find. SQB (talk) 19:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I have no backup for this, but in college (History major) I was told this was a myth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KzoneDD (talk • contribs) 02:41, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

The exact details are lost in Time, but as with so many things, Christianity adopted an already well known custom, what that custom was is hard to say without much written texts. Mahjongg (talk) 10:05, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I did some research in this connection. Someone referred to Phyllis Siefker, who was supposed to claim in chapter 9 of her book Santa Claus, Last of the Wild Men: The Origins and Evolution of Saint Nicholas, Spanning 50,000 Years that children would place their boots, filled with carrots, straw, or sugar, near the chimney for Odin's flying horse, Sleipnir, to eat. Odin would then reward those children for their kindness by replacing Sleipnir's food with gifts or candy. This practice, she claims, survived in Germany, Belgium, and the Netherlands after the adoption of Christianity and became associated with Saint Nicholas as a result of the process of Christianization. But I read the hole chapter 9 (in Google Books) and there is nothing about this topic in it. That chapter deals with the origin of elves in connection to Santa Claus. I did a search on key words in the rest of the book: also nothing referring to placing boots and Odin.

I kept the text about the boots and the Odin connection, but placed a remark that it might be folk etymology from the 19th century. I know from my literature studies that in the 19th century under the influence of Romanticism traditions and fairytales were dated way older than they in fact were. I read on the Dutch Wikipedia however, that placing the boots dates back to the 15th century, when poor people placing their shoe in the Sint Nicolaas Kerk in Amsterdam, since Sint Nicolaas is the patron saint of the poor. Still today traditional candy to receive in the shoe is chocolate money. So the fire place and Odin don't make much sence.--nonfictie (talk) 11:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Name day

Historically saints like Nicholas have a name day, and the name day of St. Nicholas was indeed december 6. However in the netherlands the veneration of the name day's of saints has died out, and most people don't even know what a name day is. So "Sinteklaas day" is always referred to as his birthday, never as his name day. Mahjongg (talk) 10:10, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes I agree, in the Netherlands Sinterklaas is celebrated as his birthday, not his name day. In Belgium, this is probably different. --nonfictie (talk) 11:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Kids in the Netherlands think sinterklaas still excist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.10.75.131 (talk) 10:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Merge candidate #daretoask

What about merging this article with Saint Nicholas? --Flederlander aka Patio (talk) 11:08, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose They have a bit more in common than the Easter bunny and the Tooth fairy, but not much. — Robert Greer (talk) 20:45, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose In addition to that the two old men are too differentiated, this article is also too extensive for a merge. Strictly speaking Santa Claus should than be merged in Saint Nicholas as well. I think it is sufficient that the article of Saint Nicholas have references to Santa Claus and Sinterklaas.--nonfictie (talk) 11:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose references should be enough --DDdW (talk) 07:44, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Not only Dutch-speaking

I'm under the impression the article suggests that St Nick's day is only a tradition in the Dutch-speaking Belgium. Though it's not ; Saint Nicolas is very popular in Wallonia too, and the traditions attached to his day are really similar to the ones in Flanders. -- LelalMekha — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.201.126.113 (talk) 18:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Sinterklaas in north (west) Germany

Dear Walter, still puzzled by your claim Sinterklaas is celebrated by Northern Germans, never saw any proof of that in german TV broadcastings (like the ZDF). Or do you mean the german speaking population of flanders? That would make much more sense, but I cannot read that back in your edit. 17:21, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

No. My relatives in and around Hamburg have spoken of it. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:50, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I have read the [german sinterklaas article], and it doesn't say anything about sinterklaas being celebrated in north Germany, but interestingly it did say that it is celebrated in a different form on some of the Frisian Islands not belonging to the netherlands. Its not exactly sinterklaas, but "Sunderklaas" but its related nevertheless. When googling for for "sinterklaas hamburg" I only find a club of Dutch expatriates who celebrate Sinterklaas in Hamburg. Do you have any references that regular germans celebrate Sinterklaas in Hamburg (or anywhere else in Germany) ? Mahjongg (talk) 17:08, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

since there is no reference, it should be removed, but don't use Wikipedia as a reference. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

 Done I removed the mention that Sinterklaas is celebrated in North Germany, but added that its celebrated as "sunderklaas" on the (german) wadden islands, also provided an (English language) reference, and obviously I didn't use Wikipedia as a reference for that. Mahjongg (talk) 17:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the reference to (Ouwe) Sunderklaas. This feast, as well as related feasts like Klaasohm on Borkum, Opkleden on Vlieland, and Sunderklazen on Ameland, are not the same as Sinterklaas but distinct traditions. See e.g. [1] and [2] - Jvhertum (talk) 10:06, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

You are right, on further examination of the evidence sunderklaas has nothing directly to do with Sinterklaas even though the similar names. Mahjongg (talk) 15:02, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I Am Expat Citation

In response to the repeated removal of this citation, I'm adding this topic here. First off, the article contains several citations from much more questionable sources. Citation # 7 leads to a blog called Female Gamers. # 9 and # 11 are also blogs. That aside, I Am Expat is not a blog and those who have removed the citation have not offered much in the way of an argument explaining why the source is not valid. The comments made thus far amount to "it's a blog" (it isn't) and "there's no editorial oversight (actually, there is). The publication does contain a blog but, then again, so does The New York Times. Perhaps this is why they're confused? The article in question is not a blog post. Manzanitasyndrome (talk) 12:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Might be but besides the obvious fact that the link isn't a reliable source as stated by multiple persons the "conclusions" of this publication also present a very minority POV without enough editorial oversight, and citing it gives undue weight to this POV. Besides you have put the link back again without finishing this discussion, which is very bad form. Mahjongg (talk) 13:31, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Here's the thing: these "multiple persons" are offering what amounts to knee-jerk reactions to the citation. They offer no proof of their claims. It's pretty obvious that the site in question is not a blog, although they continue to call it such. They're writing it off without properly investigating it. If my behavior is bad form, well, theirs is a bit deplorable, especially given the fact that this article contains other blog posts. Manzanitasyndrome (talk) 10:48, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Your shit got canned. PWNT 2602:306:BC83:DC10:B841:65CF:1532:D3A0 (talk) 23:53, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

source(s) for santa claus

Many other sources on wikipedia make it clear that Sinterklaas was the main source for santa claus, with some influences added from father christmas. So this already an establish fact. Still the lede only says that Sinterklaas was "one of the sources", which doesn't give enough weight to his role in the emergence of the legend of Santa. As for example indicated in the article A Visit from St. Nicholas, which clearly stated the influence of Dutch tradition on this poem that more or less defined his legend. Not to mention the conversion of "Sinterklaas" to "Santa claus" itself which makes this point very evident. I pledge that the lede should mention that Sinterklaas is the main source for Santa Claus, not just "a source". Mahjongg (talk) 13:46, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

There are also many sources that say that The Central European St. Nicholas and the British Father Christmas play as much of a role. The problem is you're using sources that are trying to push Sinterklaas and so they are bias. Using Wikipedia as a source is not reasonable, but Sinterklaas is not mentioned in the article.

Main concern, where's Zwarte Piet in the North American version? Where is the North Pole in the Dutch version? How did Sinterklaas' horse become a team of reindeer/caribou? They are a nordic invention. Nicholas is a bishop and wears red just as Sinterklaas. Just leave the lede the way it is because for every source you come up with that says Sinterklaas is the main source I can come up with one that says some other thing is the main source. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:09, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Obviously Santa Claus is an amalgamate of different influences. I'm still convinced that the main ingredient of it is "Sinterklaas", and yes, there were many interpretations made, such as changing his "black helper" to (perhaps more PC) elves, and changing his white horse riding on rooftops to reindeers flying through the sky, but these are all elements copied from Sinterklaas, not from father christmas. Also the tradition emerged from New-York, the former New-Amsterdam, where Dutch colonist celebrated Sinterklaas. The main obvious reason to say that Santa Claus is a re-interpretation from Sinterklaas is simply that Santa Claus is an obvious Dutchism of the word Sinterklaas.

Anyway, I don't want to make a big point of it, readers themselves can make such conclusions if they read the facts. Mahjongg (talk) 11:39, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the New Amsterdam/New York influence the modern US Santa Claus, but we need a source for it. There was a radio broadcast on it on the CBC in the 1980s but that's not much help. We needs someone to state the fact (a.k.a. WP:RS). --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:04, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

What about this? [3] It should be a fine reliable source. Also, what I myself did not realize is that the because the patron saint of Amsterdam is St' Nicholas it is also the patron saint of New York! I have visited the St' Nicholas church in Amsterdam myself, its close to the harbor (because St' Nicholas is also the patron saint of sailors, But I digress. Mahjongg (talk) 09:00, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if it's a reliable source, but it doesn't look too bad. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:28, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I've read the strong Dutch influence of Sinterklaas in Santa Claus is very much Washington Irving's doing. The poem A Visit from St. Nicholas clearly states Irving's influence. The link Mahjongg gives form the nicolascenter.org also notes that Irving's description is "satirical fiction", so maybe we shouldn't take it to much as historically true (he did write to please his audience). By the way, the link also notes: "Along with appearance changes, the saint's name shifted to Santa Claus—a natural phonetic alteration from the German Sankt Niklaus". Which debunks the Sinterklaas transformation (Claus (or Klaus) being a German short form for Nikolaus also makes this link more probable than the Dutch Klaas). The Germans also took Belsnickel with them from Europe, a celebration connected to Saint Nicholas, a gift bringing figure dressed in fur and with bells. Phyllis Siefker connects him more to Santa (although her book, Santa Claus, Last of the Wild Men, isn't a very good read, and I wouldn't call it a reliable source). I do think you see the tenure shifting to a wider approach (were do the elf's, furry coat, north pole etc come from if it is mainly Sinterklaas being taken into account?). Joost 99 (talk) 12:30, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Dubious and unsourced stuff

'Traditionally, some goods (often carrots and straw) are "sacrificed" to Sinterklaas and his horse, much like the sacrifices of the pagan Germanics.' Leaving food out is hardly 'sacrifice', he even had to put it in quotes because it is such a stretch. In addition there is no academic support cited for this food-leaving being rooted in pagan sacrifice, so I will be removing it. The entire first section smacks of neopagan straw-grasping, to be honest. 2602:306:BC83:DC10:B841:65CF:1532:D3A0 (talk) 23:56, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

New name for this article?

As many other before me have noticed, the name of this article suggests that Saint Nikolaus is celebrated only in the Netherlands, and only with the name of Sinterklass. I'd like the whole article to be renamed as "Saint Nikolaus' fest" or something like that, since all the names provided after are cases of linguistic distortion. [SVecchiato unlogged] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.141.2.174 (talk) 10:06, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Edit: I would also link this article to the Russian "Grandfather Frost" s_vecchiato unlogged — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.119.129.136 (talk) 12:05, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

There is already an article about Saint Nicholas and Feast of St. Nicholas. This is about the Dutch character Sinterklaas.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:11, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

"black facial paint" or blackface

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

An anon is suggesting that blackface in the section on Zwarte Piet should read "black facial paint". However, that's the definition of blackface, although the connotation is not the same. The article on Zwarte Piet states it's blackface. Comments? Corrections? Discussion? Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:40, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you. The makeup and how it's used by people portraying Zwarte Piet qualifies as "blackface." It definitely fits the term's definition and should continue being used in this article. Constablequackers (talk) 09:48, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

"blackface" is an American theatre term. It should not be used in this article. Moreover because Zwarte Piet is not depicting an African. It was traditionally a Moor and nowadays a chimney sweeper.

What's more: I am completely annoyed by Americans trying to export their sensitiveness to Europe. Blackface is controversial because of association with racism in American theatres. That association has no meaning in Europe. --Wester (talk) 20:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

(e/c) And per the sources [4] [5] [6] [7] and the historical revisionists claiming that it is not blackface but soot. [8] [9] [10] -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:38, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

@Wester: "Blackface" is an English-language term. I see it in the Oxford online dictionary defined as "Make-up used by a non-black performer playing a black role." Since we are discussing non-blacks, in a performance of the Zwarte Piet character, who is reported black, it seems to fit the definition exactly. What word or phrase would you substitute?

For the record,

1. The portrayal of Zwarte Piet is considered both controversial and racist.
2. I'm not American. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:04, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Walter makes an exceptional point. This practice is, literally, the dictionary definition of the word 'blackface'. Therefore, the term should remain in place in the article. Constablequackers (talk) 11:27, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

1. The racist image exist mainly outside the Netherlands and Belgium. Their opinion is irrelevant (and ignorant). Zwarte Piet is not a African character but a Moor (Arab Spanish) or a chimney sweeper. You're definition exactly proves my point . (and 3. as a Canadian you are also an American. Remember Canada is on the American continent)--Wester (talk) 20:58, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Until you start providing reliably published sources that indicate a world wide academic consensus that it is not blackface, your personal declaration that it is not blackface carry as much weight as your declaration that Canadians are Americans. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

1) Moors are often portrayed as black.

2) As a Canadian, I am not American. Don't ever insult me like that again. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:49, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

At this point, I'm convinced that Wester is merely trolling this page. His arguments are featherweight and, as has already been noted, they consist of little more than indefensible flip responses without a single verifiable citation to back them. This is an individual who also, apparently, can't tell the different between the United States and Canada. In short, I think we can close the book on this discussion and move on with our lives. Constablequackers (talk) 10:45, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Great argument to call someone who doesn't agree with you a troll. That's more exemplary for a lack of arguments.

I gave solid arguments. Blackface is an American theatre term. It has nothing to do with Zwarte Piet. It's also wrong to export the negative connotation with the term 'blackface' to Zwarte Piet. In Belgium and the Netherlands Zwarte Piet is not considered racist. The recent controversies originate from outside the Netherlands and Belgium. Mainly by outsiders that don't know anything about Zwarte Piet but do have a strong opinion (based on what they know on the unrelated American blackfacing).

@Walter Görlitz: Zwarte Piet is not a fixed character. Eg. an important part of the character is that he's a chimney sweeper. Like this were you can see he is not fully black.

This article exclusively uses the uses the Anglo (American, Canadian, British, whatever) point of view. Where in Belgium and the Netherlands 89% (bases on survey) don't view Zwarte Piet as racist. It's not that 89% of the population is racist. Also many people view Zwarte Piet as a chimney sweeper (like said before). So not blackfacing.--Wester (talk) 11:50, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Your "solid argument" that "Blackface is an American theatre term" carries no water because I offered a source to show that's not the case. That there are more and more protests at Sinterklaas parades specifically geared against Zwarte Piet argues against your lie that it is not considered racist. Read the Zwarte Piet article which is another article I edit. It has had so many protests listed there that we have had to start to restrict it to only the largest and most publicized. Since the news sources we use are from the Netherlands and Belgium, you are once again lying that the opinions expressed are Anglo. Again, Zwarte Piet is portrayed as a chimney sweep, but he is a servant (or possibly slave) of Sinterklaas, but the chimney sweep depiction is an alternate view introduced in the 20th century. So I quit. As for the image you provided, blackface clearly explains what that portrayal of Zwarte Piet: a white actor who has make-up on to make him appear black (or to placate your sensibilities, darker than a white person). Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:43, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I do not take that this discussion is unilaterally closed. I gave a source that clearly indicate that 89% of the Dutch don't consider Zwarte Piet racist. Who are outsiders do conclude that it is racist? That's only based on the negative connotation with the American theatre term which has nothing to do with Zwarte Piet. Stop exporting your sensitivies. This article should at least also give the Dutch and the Belgian point of view. Here are some more sources considering the so called 'racist' aspect: [11]

In the Netherlands and Belgium Zwarte Piet is considered a chimney sweepers. [12] this is an interesting article on the different origins of the Zwarte Piet character. As you can see there is not just one right story.

Another elaborate story that Zwarte Piet is not a blackface: [13] --Wester (talk) 11:57, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

While this discussion has been closed and any further discussion of these matters is entirely irrelevant, I feel the need to respond to your statements, Wester. You need to realize that what you're offering is opinions and revisionist history instead of facts. Who cares if 89% of the Dutch public doesn't consider the tradition racist? If 89% of them also believed that dogs go "meow" instead of "woof" would that change the fact they're incorrect? Bringing this back around to the topic at hand, the tradition of white actors putting on black makeup to portray Zwarte Piet is, literally, the dictionary definition of the word "blackface." There's no getting around this. It's a fact. Plug the term into the Oxford Dictionary and this is what you'll find. You can beat your head against this all you want but your efforts will be all for naught. Black makeup + white actors = blackface.

Furthermore, I suggest that you read up on the history of Zwarte Piet and study how the character has evolved into his present state. It's exhaustively outlined on ZP's Wikipedia page with numerous reliable sources. I'm sorry to say that it refutes your claims, however. Feel free to respond to my statements but I'll warn you now: I won't be reading them or replying to them either since, as has already been stated, this discussion has reached its conclusion. Constablequackers (talk) 09:37, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

'Traditional figure'

I know the wording that Sinterklaas is a 'traditional figure' probably stems out of some edit war, but to me this is way too vague. Also, it makes Sinterklaas appear as a fixed, unchangeable figure. For an alternative, the Santa Claus article: 'a mythical figure with legendary, historical and folkloric origins'. 82.217.116.224 (talk) 20:49, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

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The Good Holy Man

Goedheiligman is from Goedhylik man, modern Dutch goedhuwlijkman, good marriage man. He paid the dowry for three poor girls. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.212.116.112 (talk) 18:13, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Didn't know this, but etymologiebank.nl says so too: http://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/heiligman That said, while this may be the origin, in its current form the word does translate to "good holy man". Drabkikker (talk) 11:55, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

roet piet

Black pete (zwarte piet) is recently changed too roet piet (soot pete) i realy think this should be included — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.186.135 (talk) 06:07, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

A source would be useful for this. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:55, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Sinter Klaas is based on Greek Patron Saint

Any scholarly work will tell you so, stop removing my edit. Turks arrived in Minor Asia around 11th century with the arrival and conquest by Seljuk Turks. Myra was an Ancient Greek, Roman Greek, Byzantine Greek and even an Ottoman Greek city before Population exchange between Greece and Turkey. During the time of of Saint Nicholas. Myra was under control of the Roman Empire. There were no Turks in the area prior to the 11th century. Ozan33Ankara (talk) 15:29, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Saint Nicholas was Turkish but ethnically Greek, but don't conflate the two subjects and if someone wants to read about Nicholas, there's a link present and there is no reason for providing more information about Nicholas in this article; information about Nicholas should be provided at that article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:42, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

He was not Turkish since that is a country formed in the 20th century. First you said anyone knows he was Turk and I quote "and he was a Turk, not a Greek. take to talk here " and now you admit he was ethnically Greek, but still trying to paint him as having a Turkish nationality.

He was an ethnic Greek under the Roman Empire. In third century AD. Yet somehow he is Turkish? That is like saying Saint John and Constantine were Turkish.

Your arguments are weak. Mentioning Sinter Klaas being based on the Greek Saint Nicholas gives people a better summary and understanding of the article and person mentioned. --Ozan33Ankara (talk) 17:55, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Sinterklaas is based on Saint Nicholas. Period. End of story. We do not need to recount anything more about the subject than that here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:34, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

The fact that you are linking a DAB is also a problem. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:42, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

More information about Zwarte Piet than Sinterklaas on the article for Sinterklaas?

Zwarte Piet already has his own article. This one is for Sinterklaas. Section 1.2 "Zwarte Piet" is much longer and cites more sources than both section 1.1 "Sinterklaas" (the focal point of this article) and the opener for the actual Zwarte Piet article.

I'm not qualified to expound on Sinterklaas, and I don't wanna go indiscriminately deleting sentences and taking an axe to citations that people spent time carefully constructing. But section 1 reads as disjointed and imbalanced. The heading for Sinterklaas is very sparse prose in the form of a short laundry list of details, devoid of any historical context or even a specified time during which the facts applied. The Zwarte Piet heading that follows is a sprawling history of Zwarte Piet over the years, across multiple eras and locales, and even includes public opinion statistics and political implications.

The rest of the article goes into more depth on Sinterklaas but those sections are much lower on the page. I think it's right for some space to be committed to describing the Zwarte Piet racism controversy, insofar as it affects interpretation and celebration of Sinterklaas. But along with the description of Zwarte Piet himself, it should probably be just a brief summary plus any details that specifically relate to or overlap with Sinterklaas, along with a link to the proper article on Zwarte Piet. If an expert can expand the Sinterklaas section sufficiently that the whole article feels equally dense, then maybe that's better. Aminomancer (talk) 21:59, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Image

I don't want to reopen the debate from above about Blackface, but is there another image we could possibly use on this page? Or is the fact that Zwarte Piet is typically portrayed by someone who is not black intrinsic to the character itself? Delukiel (talk) 17:05, 16 December 2023 (UTC)