Talk:Sing-Akademie zu Berlin

Name

Hi everyone! I would like to suggest to change the name of this article to the formal name "Sing-Akademie zu Berlin." You may be aware of the fact that there was a serious legal battle about the naming of the choir recently. The correct title would reflect the correct name of the choir AND the historically correct name as it appears in almost all early sources. Since most people know the choir from the generic Berlin Singakademie we could have a redirect to the new name from the old entry. Also it would be helpful to have a page clarifying the difference between Sing-Akademie zu Berlin and Berliner Singakademie. Any thoughts on that? Matthias Röder 14:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the problem here is that this is the English Wikipedia and English and US academic works, etc. refer to the organisation as 'Berlin Singakademie'. Anyone speaking English wishing to look up the organisation would be therefore highly likely to use the present title of the article, and I would guess would be largely interested in its history. They are unlikely to be aware of the contemporary legal battle over the name. --Smerus 06:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your thoughts on this issue! I understand your arguments in this case, however I am not entirely convinced. In most English publications a wide variety of terms is applied. They range from "Berlin Singakademie," "Singakademie", "Sing-Akademie," "Berlin Sing-Akademie," "Singakademie zu Berlin," "Berliner Sing-Akademie," "Berliner Singakademie" (the latter being clearly wrong, because Berliner Sing-Akademie refers to the choir in the eastern part of Berlin). Considering that all versions of the organization's name are being used in English publications, and considering that all historical sources speak of the "Sing-Akademie" it would make much more sense to use the official and historically correct title in my opinion.

What about this compromise then? We'll change the title to "Berlin Sing-Akademie" and make sure to use the corect title "Sing-Akademie zu Berlin" in the article itself?

Or, if we'll wait a bit, I may come to my senses and realize that the whole naming issue is not so important after all! ;-) Cheers! Matthias Röder 09:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The right answer I feel (if anyone can be bothered) is the following:

1) Leave name as at present.

2) Create separate article for "Berliner Singakademie" (the East Berlin organisation)

3) Place italic headers on each article making it clear which organisation it refers to and giving a wiki-link to the other.

4) Create appropriate 'redirect pages' for 'Singakademie zu Berlin', 'Sing-Akademie zu Berlin', etc. etc.

BTW if you have details about the legal challenges to the name could you include this in the article(s)?

Best regards, --Smerus 05:44, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Smerus! We'll do it like you suggested! I'll work on the article and include all sorts of information about the latest developments of the organization as soon as I am done with the Johann Adam Hiller article. Hope all is well! Matthias Röder 08:48, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In Germany, esp. in Berlin the naming of the two choirs is a serious problem, even in newspapers they're mixed up. Berliner Singakademie (former eastern part, *1963) and Singe-Akademie zu Berlin are two different organisations, with different members, different conductors, different repertoire. But they derive from the same tradition. There was only one Singakademie in each part of the town, when the city was parted. When the wall came down, however, the two choirs didn't merge. That's why we still have two Singakademien in Berlin. --87.159.134.23 (talk) 12:46, 7 April 2009 (UTC) (C.F. from Berlin/Germany)[reply]

This article is about Sing-Akademie zu Berlin, and just one line is about Berliner Singakademie. I will therefore request a move of this article to its appropriate place. -- Robert Weemeyer (talk) 19:01, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Move request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. DrKiernan (talk) 17:40, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Berliner Singakademie → Sing-Akademie zu Berlin – This article is about Sing-Akademie zu Berlin, and just one line is about Berliner Singakademie. Robert Weemeyer (talk) 19:08, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, true, the historic name is Sing-Akademie zu Berlin, but the present name is Berliner Singakademie, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:17, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is wrong. Sing-Akademie zu Berlin, founded in 1791, does still exist, and so does the 1963 Berliner Singakademie. The article, however is about the 1791 institution and mentions the 1963 choir with just one short paragraph. -- Robert Weemeyer (talk) 06:40, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, "Berliner Singakademie" is the common name of the 18th century establishment (officially: "Sing-Akademie zu Berlin"), not only the 1963 East German institution. See some of these sources. We might consider moving to Berlin Singing Academy per WP:Use English. --RJFF (talk) 11:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

For your information: Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 March 11#Sing-Akademie zu Berlin. -- Robert Weemeyer (talk) 01:33, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Academy of ancient music

I was wondering where the information on the Academy of ancient music being the model for the Singakademie comes from? I have never seen such a reference in any of the literature on the topic. Could anyone produce a citation for this claim and add it to the article, please? Many thanks! Matthias Röder 23:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Split

This article should be split up, because it deals about two distinct academies: The 1791 Sing-Akademie zu Berlin and the 1963 Berliner Singakademie, both still existing today. -- Robert Weemeyer (talk) 07:30, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: There is only one sentence about the second academy. They are obviously in the same tradion, the second one only created because of the split between East and West Berlin. --RJFF (talk) 08:11, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per RJFF above Op47 (talk) 19:55, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to write an article about the second academy. Where should I put it? -- Robert Weemeyer (talk) 11:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the purposes of getting the article started, I would suggest Berliner Singakademie (East Berlin). I would suspect that it would get renamed later on. Op47 (talk) 19:55, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Article created: Berliner Singakademie (East Berlin). -- Robert Weemeyer (talk) 08:36, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 March 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move Berliner Singakademie to Sing-Akademie zu Berlin. This has been a somewhat convoluted discussion, but a few things are clear. There is consensus for this move, as well as a rough consensus against moving Berliner Singakademie (East Berlin) to Berliner Singakademie. For the time being, Berliner Singakademie will become a two-way dab page. I would encourage the articles' editors to keep track of page view traffic and sources determine if this situation is really the best bet, or if another option (redirecting "Berliner Singakademie"; moving the East Berlin article, etc.) Cúchullain ^t/c 19:48, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

– Delete the redirect and move Berliner Singakademie to Sing-Akademie zu Berlin. Berliner Singakademie can then become an disambiguation page, pointing to Sing-Akademie zu Berlin and Berliner Singakademie (East Berlin). Alternatively, Berliner Singakademie (East Berlin) could be moved to Berliner Singakademie with a hatnote pointing to Sing-Akademie zu Berlin. Robert Weemeyer (talk) 08:44, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging participants Robert Weemeyer, Gerda Arendt, Smerus, and Si Trew to let them know that the discussion has moved here. (Moved from Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 March 11#Sing-Akademie zu Berlin.) Steel1943 (talk) 03:09, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I see mainly two possibilities: cover them all in one article (with lots of redirects), or keep separate ones (only then do we need a disambiguation). The name of a potential single article (which I would prefer) doesn't matter too much as long as all major names are mentioned bold in a longer lead that points out more history. The present state, to have one name the article name and another the only name mentioned in the lead is not helpful for historical understanding. An infobox with clear coordination of names and years might help. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:21, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As these are two separate choirs, both still existing today, I would not like to mix them up in one article just because the newer one was named after the older one. -- Robert Weemeyer (talk) 11:14, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"East Berlin" seem an anachronistic disambiguation for a choir of today. If we need an extra article for the stub, we should think about that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:21, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Compare de: de:Sing-Akademie zu Berlin, de:Berliner Singakademie, - we could do that also, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:24, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's right, that disambiguation is anachronistic. And nowadays Sing-Akademie zu Berlin is based (again) in what used to be East Berlin. So moving Berliner Singakademie (East Berlin) to Berliner Singakademie would really be desirable. -- Robert Weemeyer (talk) 11:56, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To save multiple redirects, and unnecessary clutter such as an info-box, I would support the proposal "Delete the redirect and move Berliner Singakademie to Sing-Akademie zu Berlin. Berliner Singakademie can then become an disambiguation page, pointing to Sing-Akademie zu Berlin and Berliner Singakademie (East Berlin)."--Smerus (talk) 09:25, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- That seems like a better bet. Si Trew (talk) 11:59, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support move, but we will need to check (and possibly change) the present links to Berliner Singakademie before we do it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:07, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have checked and changed the links. -- Robert Weemeyer (talk) 09:48, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: "Berliner Singakademie" is more often used as an informal name for the institution formally known as "Sing-Akademie zu Berlin" than for the 1963 establishment because the former has a much longer history and greater historical significance. See e.g. the google books hits – most of them are about the 1791 establishment, not the 1963 one. We could however change Berliner Singakademie into a disambiguation page, as there is one institution commonly known (at least in the past) as Berliner Singakademie and one using this name officially. I agree that "East Berlin" is not a good disambiguator given that Berlin has been reunited for 25 years and both choirs have their seat in former East Berlin. Therefore I would propose to move the article to Berliner Singakademie (1963) using the year of establishment as disambiguator. It needs a disambiguator and should not be moved to Berliner Singakademie, because it is not the primary topic under that title (as I have tried to show above) and would lead to confusion, because many people actually think of the "Sing-Akademie zu Berlin" when they write "Berliner Singakademie". --RJFF (talk) 20:36, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I support the move of Berliner Singakademie to Sing-Akademie zu Berlin, for reason of disambiguation, I am just against moving Berliner Singakademie (East Berlin) to Berliner Singakademie. Instead, Berliner Singakademie should be a disambiguation page, linking to both Sing-Akademie zu Berlin and Berliner Singakademie (East Berlin) (which should rather be named Berliner Singakademie (1963)) --RJFF (talk) 18:46, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.