Talk:Silvestre S. Herrera

"premier merito militar"?

Ok, there is *nothing* on Google about this award, except for the source to this article, and the "Did you know" entry. Perhaps it's mis-spelt, but it's not likely that Mexico's highest honour doesn't have a single match. What's the deal? Stevage 16:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, for one, it's "Premio, not Premier, and if you google Premio Mérito Militar without quotes that gives lots of hits, though the formal name of the award may be slightly different, and the article may need to be tweeked accordingly. -Murcielago 16:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

You should be able to search for it *with* speech marks, that is, if it were real. Searching with quotes gives one hit. Searching without quotes gives any page in which any of hte three words appear in any order. --Oldak Quill 18:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Here it talks of a condecoración (decoration, medal) for Mérito Militar. Reading between the lines, however, it appears not to be the country's top military honour in a Medal of Honor / Victoria Cross sense, coming in second to the award for Valor Heroico. (But maybe things were different during/around WW2?) Talking of "equivalents" is always a risky endeavour, anyway, once one or two layers of onionskin get peeled off.Bolivian Unicyclist 20:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

What's the big fuzz? Here the a Medal of Honor profile website:[1] where it states "Primier Merito Militar" and it also has a picture of the man with both decorations. Let's not make anissue of it and enjoy the article. Tony the Marine 20:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The "fuzz" is that if editors can't verify that Silvestre S. Herrera indeed received this elusive "premier merito militar", they are perfectly entitled to remove the information from the article, so you might want to make a good doublecheck. Circeus 21:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't know if the "Handbook of Texas Online" is an authoritative source, but here is a bio from there on another American Soldier (now deceased), who was also authorized to wear the same medal. http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/GG/fga76.html. -Murcielago 21:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• The Handbook of Texas Online is a work of "the Texas State Historical Association in partnership with the College of Liberal Arts and the General Libraries at the University of Texas at Austin." It is a reliable source. As far as the other soldier who was authorized to wear both medals — he is deceased, so there is no inaccuracy in the statement that Herrera is the only "living" individual .... — ERcheck (talk) 23:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Circeus, There is a foto of the man with the medal. It seems you've been having a problem about this article from the begining. Go ahead delete the entry and make the Mexican-American community in Wiki happy. Tony the Marine 22:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's all focus on what the medal is actually called. I think there are plenty of verifiable, trustworthy sources out there saying he received Mexico's Highest Military Honor. So have other American soldiers. It's a insulting to Herrera's memory to insinuate that he received nothing. Let's keep our eye on the ball. --Murcielago 23:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Tony the Marine and Murcielago, I understand that you don't want Herrera's memory besmirched, but Wikipedia has its own "balls", if you will, and those are our reliable sources and verifiability policies. Given the lack of searchable information outside of a few websites which probably crib from each other, we should be able to verify what award the Mexican government gave him, its correct name, and its importance. This does not affect Herrera himself, it affects incorrect statements about him. What is wrong with our finding the correct information?

Additionally, I remind both of you of our civility rulebook. Avoid personal attacks and assume good faith on the aprt of other editors. There's no excuse for implying low motives. --Dhartung | Talk 23:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, Dhartung. While we're at it, let's go ahead and do the same for Douglas MacArthur. -Murcielago 23:29, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• "A picture is worth a thousand words". The photo cited on this page, which as User: ERcheck stated is a work of "the Texas State Historical Association in partnership with the College of Liberal Arts and the General Libraries at the University of Texas at Austin.", thereby is a reliable source, shows Herrera wearing both the Medal of Honor and the Merito Militar. I doubt that an honorable person like Herrera would pose with both medals unless he was awarded them. This photo plus the text that mentions the award is a "Verifiable" source. Tony the Marine 23:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Actually, the photo is not from the Texas Handbook Online. It is on the HomeofHeroes.com, which is a reliable source of information on Medal of Honor recipients. The author of the information is D. Sterner. He is considered a reliable source by the U.S. Army ... his page on Herrera is cited by the U.S. Army as the source for the information that they put in their Field Manual 70-21.13: The Soldier's Guide, Chapter 1 - The Individual Soldier's Role in the Army, Section I - The Warrior Ethos and Army Values, Selfless Service, section 1-40. [2]. See reference 1-13. In addition, the Sterner has been honored by the Congressional Medal of Honor Society — men of integrity who value his integrity as well. — ERcheck (talk) 00:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

My comment on reliability was simply to answer Murcielago query as to the reliability of the Handbook of Texas Online. — ERcheck (talk) 00:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

There's a picture here identified as the Mexican Order of Military Merit (2nd class). It looks very similar to the "other" award (ie, the one that isn't the Medal of Honor) around Herrera's neck here. Surmising: this Order of Military Merit is what Herrera was awarded, only his was first-class (which is where the "premier" came from), which also has the distinction of being a neck award, like the MoH but unlike the 2nd class medal. If that seems reasonable, this article (and MacArthur's) should be linking to Order of Military Merit (Mexico). Bolivian Unicyclist 00:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, that award does exist, and Eisenhower received it. [3] -Murcielago 00:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• It seems that this whole matter may have come about because of a typo error in the site. Would it be then safe to assume that the author meant the Mexican Order of Military Merit? The photos seem to match. Should we then edit the article and change the name? If we agree on this, please state so. Tony the Marine 00:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I would prefer to not have the English translation, but rather the name given by the country giving the award. In the case of other foreign awards, such as the French Croix de guerre, we use the French name. — ERcheck (talk) 00:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The actual name is "Orden de Merito Militar", Do we all agree? Should we make the proper change and also link the site with the Photo? Tony the Marine 00:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I just changed the article to link to Order of Military Merit (Mexico), but if there's a consensus in favour of the Spanish name, I have no problem with someone changing it. What I'm more concerned about is the claim that it's the equivalent to the Medal of Honor. Evidence for it not being the country's highest award is that the law doesn't list it in first place; countries don't generally give their highest awards to members of foreign armies; and I found a plate of Condecoraciones Militares in one of my books (yeah, they still exist) that illustrates Mérito Militar in third place, after Valor Heroico and Cruz de Guerra. Bolivian Unicyclist 01:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• It seems that User:Bolivian Unicyclist, made the change. Maybe we should leave it as is. Tony the Marine 01:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm still in favor of using the Spanish-language name (see my comments above on Croix de guerre). It seems there is evidence that there are different classes of this medal (as is the case for the U.S. Legion of Merit, when bestowing the award on foreign recipients). As far as it's precedence order, I found another WWII Medal of Honor recipient (Sgt Lopez) who also received the Mexican award — "Sgt. Lopez was also greeted in Mexico City during his pilgrimage to the Basilica. He was welcomed by President Avila Camacho and was also awarded Mexico’s highest military commemoration, la Condecoracion del Merito Militar."[4] So, perhaps in WWII it had highest precedence. — ERcheck (talk) 01:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• • • I'd prefer to have it in English, if only because all the Google hits I can get for "orden de(l) mérito militar" on Mexican sites are referring to foreign awards (Guatemala, Brazil...) -- worrying, and perhaps indicative that that's not the official name. (ERcheck's comment there calling it a condecoración and not an orden is interesting, too.) But maybe the lack of references is just an artifact of lower internet penetration in Mexico. If I'm outvoted, no sweat. Bolivian Unicyclist 01:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm in favor of official name and honoring the country bestowing the medal by using that name. Your concern could be met by including the English translation parenthetically. — ERcheck (talk) 01:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. Sounds reasonable. -Murcielago 04:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• • I think as long as we have uniformity across recipients (Herrera, MacArthur, and Eisenhower all have different red links for apparently the same medal), we will be fine. All the articles on-line (from the Handbook of Texas on-line to the Arizona Republic newspaper) talking about the Hispanic recipients name it in some iteration or other of the Spanish. Perhaps once we find the "official" Mexican Name we change it to that in the Spanish. --Murcielago 01:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Does no one know any high-ranking members of the Mexican military we could ask? A phone call to the military attaché at one of their embassies? Another document I turned up is here (warning: 40 meg PDF): the uniform regulations for the Mexican Army and Air Force, with illustrations of different uniforms, rank insignias, etc. Fascinating stuff, with sumptuous illustrations. It deals with decorations, of course (arts. 200 et seq). Mérito Militar is in there (again, listed after Valor Heroico, which is described as having been created in 1926), saying that it can be awarded in four classes: third, second, first, and -- at the top -- "first class at the level/degree of order" (presea del Mérito Militar de Primera Clase en Grado de Orden). The regs. decribe the "first class, order grade" (does that terminology sound right?) award as hanging from a white silk neck ribbon; while the "first class" hangs from a gold chain -- that sounds more like what Herrera is wearing in that photo. Interesting reading but, as ERcheck has pointed out, things may have been different in the 1940s. If nothing else, perhaps we want to be linking to Mérito Militar (Mexico), because it seems that not all awards entail the "order". Bolivian Unicyclist 14:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

So far the only source I could come up with online is the same one cited by Bolivian Unicyclist above. I think it will be difficult to verify this one without being in Mexico and consulting one of the Army's libraries/museums. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 14:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Sargent versus PFC?

Why "sargent" in the sidebar and PFC averyhwere else in the article?--Arch dude 02:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• He was a PFC when he performed the actions for which he was awarded the Medal of Honor. When he left the military, he had reached the rank of Sergeant. The military infobox carries the person's highest rank achieved. — ERcheck (talk) 04:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • i am a family member with first hand knowledge and he told me several times that he made the rank of sergeant but all 3 times was demoted for "punching my lieutenant for stupid decisions". he was a great man and i was glad to know him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.42.110.121 (talk) 00:10, 20 March 2011 (UTC)