Talk:Sigurd the Stout

Sigurd the Stout has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: February 23, 2014. (Reviewed version).

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Who was Eithne?

Does anybody have decent information about who Sigurd's mother was? I mean, Assuming he was indeed born around 960, which would mean he had reached about the ripe age of 55 at the time of his attested death at Clontarf, any first generation offspring of Cearbhall Mc Dunlainge would have been past 70 when he was born, meaning that if Cearbhall was indeed his forebear, he would have to be his great grandfather, with possibly a generation or two more in between them. Is it likely that the word "daughter" by which Eithne is described would be used to mean "descended of"? --Svartalf (talk) 20:46, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sigurd the Stout/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Adam Cuerden (talk · contribs) 20:29, 22 February 2014 (UTC) Right. A strong article on a difficult subject, dealing well with ambiguity in sources. There are a few things to clear up, but they're mainly issues of phrasing, and I can't see this not being GA within a few days. 1. Lead: "these compelling stories" - that might break the encyclopedic tone a bit, as it's a value judgement.[reply]

I've made it "engaging" and added a note quoting Alex Woolf, who describes the O. saga as "certainly a very good read" to make it clear that this is academic opinion rather than my own.

2. Mainland Scotland: It might help to clarify "holdings" - it's a somewhat archaic usage of the word in modern English, especially in phrases such as "The latter he held from the Kings of Scotland rather than Norway".

Interesting - I had not thought of this as old usage, but as it does not appear on the dab page Holding (and nor had I seen the obscure Hold (title) before I looked for a link) and I have amended the language.

Certainly holdings is still seen, escpecially in Britain, but I think the verb form much less so. I grew up in America before moving to Britain, so I'm somewhat aware of such things. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 17:38, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

3. The Hebrides: A minor quibble, but given the Christian usage of "King of Man", perhaps "Gofraid mac Arailt, King of the Isle of Man" might be better. I'm not fixed on this.

I had never thought of that possible confusion! The titles of these wretched monarchs were various - I have linked him to Rulers of the Kingdom of the Isles and called him "King of the Isles" instead. He is apparently also described as king of Innse Gall i.e. the Hebrides (often including Man at that stage) so I think that's fair.

4. Death at Clontarf: "iarla Innsi Orcc" might be wise to explicitly translate.

Sorry - I was forgetting some readers don't speak pidgin Gaelic. Done.

5. Succession and other relatives: "Thorfinn's mother is specifically stated to be a daughter of Malcolm II." - I presume Malcolm II of Scotland? If so, please be explicit.

He is linked higher up so I have added a phrase indicating this.

6. Interpretations: Providing an introductory sentence to the paragraph about Kjarvalr Írakonungr would make it easier to follow. The name hasn't appeared before in this article.

Done

As I said, these are minor points in a very long, well-written article, and I look forwards to promoting this soon. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 20:29, 22 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Adam - I hope to get to most of these issues at some point today. Ben Mac Dui 14:23, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

All attempted per the above. Ben Mac Dui 15:21, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Methinks that will do. Pass Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 17:38, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sigurd's wives

A few recent edits identified Sigurd's wives as: "Thora, daughter of Haakon the Good" and "Olith, daughter of Malcolm II of Scotland" without a reliable source. Malcolm's daughter isn't named in Sigurd's ODNB article. A marriage to a daughter of Hakon isn't mentioned at all. Malcolm's ODNB article states: "It is not known whether Malcolm had any sons, but he may have had as many as three daughters. The only one whose name in known is Bethóc, who married Crínán, abbot of Dunkeld (d. 1045). Their son was Duncan I, who succeeded Malcolm as king. Another daughter of Malcolm married Sigurd (II) Hlödvisson, earl of Orkney (d. 1014), whose son was Thorfinn the Mighty, earl of Orkney".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 23:52, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing to add regarding his wives, but I do have something to add about his mother, "Eđnu daughter of Kjarvalr Írakonungr".

I just finished Duffy's Brian Boru & the Battle of Clontarf. He discusses Sigurd at pp. 228-231. He makes the obvious point that the usual "Kjarvalr Írakonungr" (Cerball mac Dúnlainge was a bit early to be Sigurd's grandfather. Instead he suggests that Cerball mac Muirecáin would be more of the right age. And he was indeed an Irish king called "Kjarvalr". He points out that this would have made Máel Morda mac Murchada of Clontarf Sigurd's first cousin.

Worth including? Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:03, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely worth noting. I don't have that book but i've read a few pages of it on Google Books. I think I've seen someone else identify Kjarvalr Írakonungr with Cerball mac Muirecáin, but I can't remember where I read it. I thought it might have been Woolf, but in Pictland to Alba (pp. 282-283) he tackles the chronology problem from a different angle. He suggests that Orkneyinga saga has confused Sigurd the Stout with the like-named Sigurd Eysteinsson: if the latter Sigurd was indeed a grandson of Kjarvalr Írakonungr, it could explain the claim by Landnámabók that Sigurd Eysteinsson was a close ally of Thorstein the Red, because Thorstein was married to a granddaughter of Kjarvalr Írakonungr.

In Viking Empires, in a chapter that appears to have been written by Richard Oram, Sigurd the Stout's mother is identified as "Cerball, son of Lorcán, son of Donnchad, the heir to Leinster" without explanation (p. 225).

Downham in "The career of Cerball mac Dúnlainge, overking of the Osraige", in No Horns on their Helmets? (p. 96), avaliable her Academia.edu page [1], just notes that the claim of Sigurd's mother being a grandaughter of Cerball is "chronologically implausible".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 22:31, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I shall have a look at that link (although I should have the book Downham's paper comes from somewhere). As for Oram's bloke, he belonged to one of the many branches of Síl nÁedo Sláine and was killed by Congalach Cnogba in 946, so not a Leinsterman except in the geographical sense. The Congalach article, being sketchy at best, doesn't even mention him. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:02, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Siguror/sigurd De Ossory

Hi. I am trying to establish if this guy had a wife/partner who produced a daughter known as Edith De Ossory Raanipura (talk) 06:13, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]