Talk:Siege of Krujë (1466–1467)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:First Siege of Krujë (1450) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 09:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Siege of Krujë (1450) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 02:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Additional source

I propose to rely to more than one source while writing this article. Here is one that may be good one.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:02, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Giosafat Barbaro

Resolved

Here is explained the role of Giosafat Barbaro in the battles against Ottoman Empire and Second Siege of Kruje. I propose to consider adding this information in the article, because the existing text could mislead the readers that Skanderbeg fought without "support of the Italian states". Also, please note the number of the men who were relief force. Not 8.000 but 13.000.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:32, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Besides adding information about Giosafat Barbaro in the text of the article, deleting the part about “lack of support of the Italian states” and changing the number of the men in relief forces I think the name of Giosafat Barbaro should be added into infobox as one of the commanders, since his position was Provveditore.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:48, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I added him to the infobox.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:43, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind it if I use Francione since he describes his involvement pretty well. I'll make sure to verify him with other sources before including him. I was originally not going to use him, but for the abovestated reasons, I think he should be used.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:51, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I still believe that work of Francione (who is not historian but a writer also worked as an actor and director, theater, essayist and painter who is from the artistic point of view influenced by Hacker Art, art, Gothic Revival and the so-called cyber-culture) should not be used as reliable source for informations about medieval history because he is not historian and he can not be regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand which is request of this and this guideline. Additionally, one should take in consideration that Francioni was used as a source for some absurd details about battles Skanderbeg participated at (like in article about the Battle of Oranik (1456) where Francioni's work is used to support the following sentence:"... Skanderbeg to stand in doubt. Skanderbeg began to move towards Moisi. As he did so, Moisi turned about and sped back...")

Such level of details doesn't exist for medieval battles and it is only additionally supporting my opinion that Francioni's work can not be considered as RS.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:14, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Fine.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:08, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Quick note

I recognize that this article may raise some controversy. Please note that whatever is said is taken directly from the sources. Many describe the massacres in a much more gruesome way than what I have included as I have tried to avoid this. Furthermore, I am not trying to push any political or nationalistic agendas; I'm just stating what sources say.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:24, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Map of Main Albanian towns during the 15th century

This map is used in the text of the article with description: "Main Albanian towns during the 15th century".

I noticed many towns which do not belong to Albania (Peja, Prizren, Tetovo, Manastir (Bitola), ....) but to Macedonia, Kosovo or some other region.

I propose to remove this map from the text of the article until mistakes are corrected in order to avoid misleading of the readers.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:55, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Or you could just rewrite the description.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:31, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

The Albanian Sanjak and the Sanjak of Debar "formed to further undermine Krujë's influence".

Resolved

Albanian Sanjak: The first Ottoman census in the Albanian Sanjak was organized in 1431. The Albanian Sanjak existed decades before Skanderbeg deserted Ottomans in 1443 and gained control over Kruje.

Sanjak of Debar:Not only that the Sanjak of Debar also existed much before Skanderbeg deserted Ottomans, but he was appointed as its sanjakbey in 1440.

Therefore it is absurd to claim that:

Separate from the Albanian Sanjak, the Sanjak of Debar was formed to further undermine Krujë's influence.

Therefore I propose to delete above mentioned sentence (and previous sentence which says that Debar in Macedonia is in Eastern Albania) and to use additional sources to support the informations in this article which is heavily relied on only one source (Frasheri).--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:39, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

As you can see, this article is under construction and that is why only Frasheri has been used yet. The references section includes works which I will include later. Frasheri knows about those two sanjaks (he mentions them earlier in the book). Actually, I misinterpreted Frasheri and will rewrite the sentence so thanks for bringing that up.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:15, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect and confusing. There is still a sentence that in 1466 sultan "planned to organize timars in eastern Albania to strangle Skanderbeg's domains". That is incorrect because timars in Eastern Albania already existed decades before 1466. Gaius Claudius Nero, you only replaced word formed to joined (without referenced source for this merge) when it comes to Albanian Sanjak and Sanjak of Debar. I find it confusing because it is not clear how could merging the two sanjaks help "undermining Krujë's influence".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:25, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

To organize does not mean to create. Please, take a small moment to understand that citations in most of the articles I work on usually include sentences before the sentence directly included. I never make up sentences, as you so carelessly imply. They are usually translated directly from the closest following citation (eg. Frasheri p. XX), hence I did reference it. You may find entire paragraphs with only one citation at the very end, but this does not mean that only the last sentence is referenced; it means that the entire paragraph is taken from that source, but I have been trying to avoid this recently. I tried to put it simply, but if you don't understand feel free to ask for further clarification. Nonetheless, this article is not even complete so why are you using it to charge invectives towards me (and please don't discard this as a personal attack)?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 23:07, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I guess that you consider this article completed since you nominated it for GA.

The previous Sanjak of Albania was thus joined with several other administrative areas to form a larger Sanjak of Dibra. - Any source for this assertion about forming the Sanjak of Dibra in 1466 by merging the Sanjak of Albania and several other administrative areas? (let me remind you that Sanjak of Dibra existed much before Skanderbeg deserted Ottomans in 1443 and that Skanderbeg was its sanjakbey from 1440)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:57, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Name

Unresolved

• "Siege of Krujë" -Llc 14 -
• "Siege of Kruja" -Llc 12
• "Siege of Croya" -Llc 26
• "Siege of Croia" -Llc 76 -, but this result includes many old sources.

-- Takabeg (talk) 03:11, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it would be a big problem to move it to Croia. I asked for the same for Albulena.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:28, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Is there any specific reason why is this issue still unresolved?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

POV?

([1], [2])

Why do you insist on removing what you call POV? This is what he calls them and it would be relevant because you wouldn't want to confuse readers if they decide to read Critoboulos and they see Illyrians instead of Albanians. You are being inconvenient to possible readers. Also, I could care less whom the Albanians are descended from so this is not POV.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:25, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

This is the article about the siege, not about archaisms used by medieval historians. Without proper scholarly interpretation of the archaism used by Critoboulos readers can be mislead to identify Albanians with Illyrians. Medieval historians used many different archaisms for different nations (Triballians, Thracians or Sarmatians for Slavs, Scythians for Mongols, Persians for Turks....). That is something irrelevant for this article and could mislead readers.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:47, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Is there a rule saying that I cannot use archaisms in the way that I did, which explained that that is the way Critoboulos referred to them? Furthermore, could you please explain how this inclusion of what Critoboulos said is POV?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 00:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a specific rule about the use of archaisms in the way you did. I thought that I already explained reasons for removal Albanian-Illyrian part. Maybe I was not clear enough, so I will summarize them:

1. it is irrelevant for this article. (now you can read above written explanation: This is the article about the siege, not about archaisms used by medieval historians. ... Medieval historians used many different archaisms for different nations (Triballians, Thracians or Sarmatians for Slavs, Scythians for Mongols, Persians for Turks....). That is something irrelevant for this article and could mislead readers.
2. it is misleading for the readers. (now you can read above mentioned explanation: Without proper scholarly interpretation of the archaism used by Critoboulos readers can be mislead to identify Albanians with Illyrians.
3. it is POV. Albanian connection with Illyrians is controversial. Inclusion of irrelevant text which could mislead readers to connect Albanians with Illyrians is POV because it gives undue weight to the archaism used by medieval historian. That could mislead readers to connect Albanians with Illyrians, which is controversial and disputed. In order to provide a balance we should describe the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint. But since this is not article about Albanian-Illyrian connection, there is no need to present any of opposing views.

Your comment about me (You are being inconvenient to possible readers) is violation of the WP:NPA: Comment on content, not on the contributor.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:24, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Fine, but you never gave a solution to the problem I presented, ie. that readers may be confused if they read Critoboulos and they don't see Albanians but Illyrians instead. (Also, you misconstrued my comment as a personal attack so I ask you to follow WP:AGF because I did not attack you here.)--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:19, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

• I, of course, did not misconstrue your comment. Here you can find a diff to your comment about me: "You are being inconvenient to possible readers."
• The problem you presented is not the problem of this article. Potential confusion of the readers of the primary sources written by medieval historians like Critoboulos and archaisms he used is not the subject of this article. What is important here is not to confuse readers of this article with irrelevant misleading POV.
• I, of course, assume good faith in case of your insisting to insert irrelevant misleading POV to this article (aimed to prevent potential confusion of potential readers of medieval primary sources when faced with archaisms used by Critoboulos). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:04, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

• Misconstrue here means to interpret erroneously which is what you did because it was not meant as a personal attack.
• Nevertheless, you did not offer a solution and instead ignored my question. One of the core pillars of Wikipedia is WP:Verifiablity which is what I am trying to take into account so that readers can check the material I included. They may be confused if it they read Illyrians instead of Albanians.
• I, of course, assume good faith in case of your insisting to insert irrelevant misleading POV to this article[.] I find that sentence very contradictory since you first said you assume good faith and then you called my edits misleading POV. Nevertheless, I don't see how readers can be mislead to believe Albanians are descendants of Illyrians by my edit. I don't see where it says anything like that. Can you explain how you came to this conclusion?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:18, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

• Incorrect. I did not interpret your comment about me. I quoted you.
• I think I gave a fairly clear explanation about this Albanian-Illyrian issue, and I don't really have much to add to that now. You are of course free to disagree with my explanations, but I don't think you should expect me to be now somehow obliged to keep discussing this with you for as long as you are dissatisfied with it. If you are not satisfied with the explanations and above mentioned arguments you can go trough dispute resolution process.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

• You said my comment is a violation of WP:NPA which is an interpretation. This was and still is, nevertheless, irrelevant.
• I will decide what to do later.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 00:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Turks and Albanians

• Sultan Mehmed II led an army of over 100,000 men into Albania

According to the latest biography on Skanderbeg (described as the best one): "The military commanders, leaders and simple soldiers, i.e. the whole army fighting against Scanderbeg, consisted of local Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs and Vlachs. There were also Turkish Muslims in the Ottoman forces who owned timar lands."Robert Elsie web site with Oliver Schmitt book

That information is supported by the text of the article which explains that: Mehmed... organized a timar in eastern Albania to strangle Skanderbeg's domains. The previous Sanjak of Albania was thus joined with several other administrative areas to form a larger Sanjak of Dibra.

The above mentioned sentence from the lede, together with extensive use of the word Turks and Turkish instead of Ottoman (16 times), could mislead readers to believe that Mehmed brought 100,000 Turks to Albania (from Anatolia?) although he had many sanjaks in Albania with plenty of soldiers. I propose to change the above mentioned sentence and rest of the text of the article according to the above mentioned contemporary source (already used in the article 14 times) and modern non-biased approach to the Ottoman history.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:35, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

There is no ethnic identification here, just an exonym for the Ottomans. Franz Babinger uses the word ([3]), Setton uses the word ([4]), Schmitt uses it ([5]), Fine uses it ([6]), Frashëri uses it ([7]), etc.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 00:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I will assume good faith and assume that your answer is not result of the fallacy but my bad explanation. Therefore I will try to explain better.

This is not an ethnicity issue. I underlined word local in above explanation.

Now a little explanation:

In 1466 there was no state with name Albania. Most of the territory of geographical region of Albania was under Ottoman control for many decades (all southern Albania with Adriatic coast and Vlore, Gjirokaster and other southern cities captured in period 1417—1419 and remained under Ottoman control for centuries) then Berat, Elbasan, Dibra region, Modrice, ...., with government organized within Ottoman sanjaks. According to the above mentioned sourced explanation: "....the rebels were not opposed by “foreign” invaders, but by local forces loyal to the new empire....The military commanders, leaders and simple soldiers, i.e. the whole army fighting against Scanderbeg, consisted of local Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs and Vlachs. There were also Turkish Muslims in the Ottoman forces who owned timar lands."Robert Elsie web site with Oliver Schmitt book

Here is what article says:

• "Sultan Mehmed II led an army of over 100,000 men into Albania" or
• "Soon after, Mehmed's men marched into Albania in full force."
• the road was open for Mehmed to lead an invasion
• Mehmed grew furious ... and began preparations for a new invasion.

According to the modern non-biased approach to the Ottoman history and above mentioned source it is not true because Skanderbeg's rebels were opposed by local forces from Albania. WP:POV says that all significant views should be represented fairly, without bias.

Therefore I propose to avoid POV and include above mentioned significant view trough more appropriate wording and explanations. Otherwise readers could be mislead that Skanderbeg's rebels were opposed by "foreign" invaders who attacked the whole territory of the region of Albania (or some state which name was Albania) while plenty of Ottoman soldiers from sanjaks in Albania sat at home not participating in this siege.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that the Ottoman Empire wasn't a foreign power but instead a part of Skanderbeg's Albania? This makes no sense. Also, what I wrote was taken directly from modern, non-biased sources:

• Soon after, Mehmed's men marched into Albania in full force is found in Frashëri p. 424 as such: Fill pas këtij lajmi te kobshëm filloi rreth mesit të muajit maj të vitit 1466, fushata e ushtrive perandorake osmane kundër Shqipërisë.
• the road was open for Mehmed to lead an invasion is found in Schmitt p. 401 as such Rruga drejt Arbërisë ishte e hapur and he says earlier sulltani po mblidhte trupa për fushatën e tij kundër Arbërisë.
• Mehmed grew furious ... and began preparations for a new invasion is found in Schmitt p. 402 as such: Fitorja e Skënderbeut para Krujës e kishte zemëruar keqas padishahun and Fushata e vitit 1467 u planifikua më mirë se sipërmarrja e vitit më parë. It is also found in Noli p. 335 as such: Mehmeti s'e mbajti dot veten nga tërbimi dhe filloi menjëherë përgatitjet për një ekspeditë tjetër kundër Shqipërisë.

Also, I changed invasion words to campaign in the article so keep that in mind.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:56, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for replacing invasion with campaign.

I, of course, never wrote that Ottoman Empire was part of Albania or that you misinterpreted the sources here (though it looks that Schmitt uses word campaign, not invasion as you wrote).

I think that I explained my proposal to avoid POV and misleading of the readers and to "include above mentioned significant view trough more appropriate wording and explanations". It is wrong to pick to present one kind of information from Schmitt's book without providing his above mentioned explanations. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:13, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that Schmitt nor anybody that I know states what ethnicity the soldiers fighting against Skanderbeg in 1466-1467 were (and I want to avoid WP:Synth), except for some Ottoman Albanian commanders which are mentioned in the article. The only place I could see this going into would be in the Background section but I'm not sure where it would be appropriate.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 23:43, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

• This is not an ethnicity issue. It should be clearly emphasized in the text of the article too. This was not ethnic conflict between Albanians and non-Albanians who came with Mehmed II to Albania.
• The text of the article is absolutely confusing and misleading to average reader. Word Albania (and Albanian(s)) is used 100 times in the article although its meaning very often does not correspond with meaning of the widely accepted English name in modern context. Without appropriate explanations average reader can be easily mislead to believe that Albania means either the whole territory of the geographical region of Albania or some state which name was Albania. In case of Albanian(s), without appropriate explanations readers can be easily mislead to believe that this was an ethnic conflict between ethnic Albanians and Ottoman non-Albanians who came to Albania with Mehmed II.

To resolve the problem of misleading and confusing text I propose to provide some basic explanations (at the beginning of the article) and to clarify that:

1. This was not an ethnic conflict between Albanians and non-Albanians who came with Mehmed II to Albania. If there was a basis for distinction between the opposing factions, it was their religion, not ethnicity. Skanderbeg and his followers were predominantly Christians and Ottoman army was predominantly composed of Muslims. Regardless of their ethnicity. Since Ottoman Empire controlled a big part of Albania, ethnic Albanians were significant part of the Ottoman armies fighting against Skanderbeg, together with local Slavs and Vlachs.
2. This was not a conflict between Ottoman Empire on one side and the population of the region of Albania on another. In 1466 a big part of the territory of the geographical region of Albania was already under control of the Ottoman Empire and local population of Ottoman Albania was significant part of the Ottoman armies. If we can not find appropriate accurate map of the region of Albania in 1466 it is very important to provide explanation what parts of Albania were under control of the Venetian Empire, Ottoman Empire and Skanderbeg.
3. This was not a conflict between Ottoman Empire and state which name was Albania. Even the infobox of the article explains that Republic of Venice and League of Lezhe (or what was left of that league) fought against the Ottoman Empire.

According to the above mentioned explanations, the text of the article should be reworded to avoid misleading of the readers.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:58, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Antid, these are what the sources say. I tried to make sure that I did not say things which the sources didn't. It doesn't matter whether we like it or not and I cannot change them. That being said, I'm not going to waste time and energy arguing with you about things you don't like, nor am I required to, so I suggest putting those requests to more relevant pages.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 05:01, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Coat-rack

I am afraid that significant part of this article can be probably best described as Wikipedia:Coatrack. In case of coat-rack there is the nominal subject and the real subject of the text.

The nominal subject: The Siege of Krujë in 1466 is only a cover for a tangentially related biased subject.

The real biased subject of some parts of this article: Glorifying Skanderbeg as ethnic Albanian, the national hero of the Albanian nation, who fought bravely and successfully to defend all Albania (which is presented as medieval state of the homogeneous Albanian nation) in ethnic conflicts with foreign invaders (accompanied with a couple of Albanian traitors), protecting Europe from non-civilized Asiatic hordes (who are massacring ethnic Albanians all over Albania) and being left alone (or with insufficient help) by European Christian states for which they sacrificed themselves. That is exactly the impression that uninitiated reader get from this article. The problem is that it is only a cocktail of nationalistic myths which are all heavily disputed. Almost all myths of Albanian nationalists are presented here: Myth of Skanderbeg, Antemurale myth, Myth of Albanian Indifference to Religion, Myth of Ethnic Homogeneity and Cultural Purity and Myth of Permanent National Struggle. If you insert Albanian-Illyrian connection we will have here the complete coctail together with Myth of Origins and Priority or Myth of Provenance which attaches great importance to the 19th century idea of possible Illyrian contribution to Albanian ethnogenesis. If I would not assume good faith I could get impression that your insisting to insert Albanian-Illyrian connection was not aimed to prevent potential confusion of potential readers of medieval primary sources when faced with archaisms used by Critoboulos.

"But it's true!"

The usual excuse for coatrack is:"But it's true!" like you Gaius Claudius Nero wrote in your comments here, although I clearly stated that "I, of course, never wrote...that you misinterpreted the sources here". The contents of a coatrack article can be superficially true. However, the mere excessive volume of the bias subject creates an article that, as a whole, is less than truthful. When confronted with a potential coatrack article, an editor is invited to ask: what impression does an uninitiated reader get from this article?

Fact picking

One of the characteristics of the coat-rack is fact picking. Oliver Schmitt in his work, which is already used in this article, emphasize the following explanations:"The uprising, ..., was motivated initially neither by religion nor by politics...Scanderbeg, the leader of the revolt, ...was driven by a need for personal revenge.. Scanderbeg’s life was no triumphant advance, but a long-term struggle for survival. It was marked by defeat, hopeless situations and yet many fortuitous twists of fate...the rebels were not opposed by “foreign” invaders, but by local forces loyal to the new empire...Many Albanians had good reason not to join the uprising. The movement was not fostered by language or any feeling of belonging to an ethnic group...The military commanders, leaders and simple soldiers, i.e. the whole army fighting against Scanderbeg, consisted of local Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs and Vlachs. There were also Turkish Muslims in the Ottoman forces who owned timar lands....Scanderbeg’s life and uprising thus turned into a tragedy for his native land that was devastated and depopulated as no other region of the Balkans before the arrival of the Ottomans....he was in reality the tragic figure of his age"Robert Elsie web site with Oliver Schmitt book. Instead of finding a balanced set of information about the subject, a coatrack goes out of its way to find facts that support a particular bias.

• In order to resolve this problem I presented above mentioned proposal which is not anything dramatic. Only to provide some basic above mentioned explanations and to reword some parts of the text of the article.
• I am also not going to argue with you. This is my final comment about this issue in debate with you. If there are other users who maybe need some additional explanation of my opinion, I am willing to waste time and energy to give it. If not, that is also ok. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

This is not WP:forum. If you want Frasheri et. al to change what they say in their books, maybe you can contact their publishers. I can't change what they say. I think you are guilty of your accusations in you blatant attempt to insert your own POV. If you want changes, I assumed good faith and suggested that I was willing to make changes (The only place I could see this going into would be in the Background section but I'm not sure where it would be appropriate), but you just write long, condescending messages criticizing me and what I contribute instead of proposing anything concrete. Is this your method of cooperation? (Of course, I expect that you actually don't want to work with me since most of your messages hint at demagoguery and WP:BATTLE.)--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Palazzo Venezia or Scanderbeg Palazzo

Resolved

Here is a source which claims that Skanderbeg refused to stay in Palazzo Venezia and decided to reside in palazzo that was later named after him, Palazzo Scanderbeg. I propose to double check the sources about the palace he resided during his stay in Rome, because there are other articles supporting the information he resided in the palace Scanderbeg.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I changed it.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:05, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Maybe it is better to use current name of the palace (Palazzo Venezia) instead of the old name Palazzo di San Marco?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:21, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Inaccurate map

Unresolved

I think that the map of South-eastern Europe 1464 is unclear and inaccurate in case of Albania (which is most important part for this article). I.e. it does not show that port Vlore was under Ottoman control (from 1417), or Gjirokaster (from 1419), Diber region, Korçë, .... In the same time significant part of Montenegro is presented to belong to Albania. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

The purpose of the map is not to show where Albania is, but to show the extent of the Ottoman Empire during that time. Vlorë is not labelled and the region which Gjirokastra is in is clearly shown to be under Ottoman rule. Nevertheless, the purpose of the map is to show the extent of the Ottoman Empire, ie. not in Albania, but in South Eastern Europe in general, hence why the caption says Map of south-eastern Europe in 1464 AD and not otherwise. There is a mention in the section to the Venetian siege on Patras which the reader might not know the location of, so that is why I originally decided to add it. If you have another map to propose, please give me a link so that I can see.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:43, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I checked again about Gjirokastra and I still believe it is not presented within Ottoman Empire.

This is article about the Siege of Kruje and since the map is inaccurate in case of the part of the territory of Albania which belonged to the OE then it can additionally mislead readers and should be removed.

It is better not to have map then to have wrong and misleading map.

I don't know if there is a better map. I will try to find it. But I know there are many articles about Skanderbeg which are in dire need for appropriate map. I think that the best approach is to create a set of maps (suitable for gif presentation) which would clearly show:

1. the territory of Albania (without Albania Veneta) which was put under vassalage to OE at the end of 14th century, then
2. under its direct control at the beginning of 15th century, then
3. to create a map which would show the 1444 territory of League of Lezha which was formed on the part of territory of Albania
4. then to present constant reduction of the territory under Skanderbeg's control until
5. in 1466 it encompassed only northern highlands under Dukagjini control and Kruje and few surrounding castles under Skanderbeg's control

I am sure that coordinated team work can result with decent set of very useful maps which can be used in big number of articles about Skanderbeg. I am willing to participate in such work.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:20, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not very good at making maps and even after asking at the Map Workshop for two years, nobody was willing to help me. I'd be glad to have help. For right now, I am looking for a map to replace the one in the article.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 00:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

COA

Unresolved

COA used in this article has significant issues explained here and here.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:01, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

List of some issues

Below is a list of some issues which resolving might help improvement of this article.

List of some issues

Possible inaccuracies If Babinger is right when estimate the size of the Ottoman army to 30.000, then Mehmed did not leave Albania with his main army (but only with 25%) if he left Balaban with 23,000 soldiers. " the Turks could march against Bosnia, Serbia, Dalmatia, Negroponte, or Albania" Again Turks marching ... but in this case against Serbia (? Serbia was captured by the Ottomans in 1459, seven years before this event), (Bosnia in 1463, three years before this event) and again of course Albania (which significant part of the territory already belonged to the Ottomans for decades). Wikilinks are leading to the modern day republics of Serbia and Bosnia. Elbasan concerned not only the Albanians, but also the Venetians who feared for their possession in Albania as Durazzo lay only 30 miles (48 km) away - Today, when there are modern roads, the shortest route between Durres and Elbassan is 83 km, or more, depending on the route. Venice reported to Hungary that Mehmed had offered peace and was willing to accept it. Hungary also opted for peace, but Mehmed only sought peace with Venice in order to isolate Skanderbeg and thus peace was not signed. - It is not so big problem because of this assertions are not referenced. The problem is that it seems to contradict to what Setton says about the same thing. According to Setton, it was totally the opposite. Venice wanted peace, but Mehmed refused it by requesting too much for peace (Venice to pay him yearly tributes among other things) - page 287. The number of the Ottoman troops who participated in this siege was 30,000 according to the Babinger (page 252. The same number is in the existing version of the article about Skanderbeg. According to Babinger, and "probably as early as February" "piched camp outside Kruje". The article says June? According to Babinger, Balaban came to Albania before Mehmed (probably February). The article says they came together in June (Mehmed had marched into Albania with Ballaban Badera under his command)? According to Marin Barleti, Skanderbeg's main biographer, Skanderbeg had placed 4,400 men under Tanush Thopia. Along with them were placed Venetian infantry under Baldizar Perduzzi and 200 Neapolitan marksmen. - Venetian infantry (Babinger says 1,000) and Napolitan marksmen (200) together with 4,400 men under Thopia equals 5,600. Infobox says 4,400? According to Babinger, the commander of the garrison was Baldizar Perduzz (Baldassare Perducci). This information corresponds with the Ottoman version of the main reason for the attack on Skanderbeg's (Venetian) stronghold. Unclear The fortress especially worried Venice since Elbasan was constructed on the banks of the Shkumbin River which would allow the Ottomans to send ships into the Adriatic and threaten Venetian colonies. - This sentence does not make much sense. In 1466 Ottomans already had Vlore under their control for 50 years. Why would they need Shkumbin River to send ships into the Adriatic? against the Ottoman Empire - not only against Ottoman Empire. Skanderbeg fought against Venetian Republic also, not to mention his Italian campaign and clashes with Dukagjini clan. , defeating them in battle multiple times, - not only defeating. From the start of his struggle he was defeated many times and gradually lost control of the territory and castles. He organized a timar in eastern Albania to strangle Skanderbeg's domains. - A timar? Numerous timars existed in eastern Albania much before 1466. Timars were part of the sanjaks, so there is no need to mention only one timar in eastern Albania because readers could be mislead to believe that other timars in eastern Albania did not participate in struggle against Skanderbeg. Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479) should be explained because it shows a wider picture of the events and provide a basis for the Ottoman version of the events. It is very important to emphasize one simple fact: During this Ottoman-Venetian war territory of Albania became one of the main battlefields.(Smailagic, Nerkez (1990), Leksikon Islama (in Croatian), Sarajevo: Svjetlost, p. 31, ISBN 9788601018136, OCLC 25241734, retrieved 28. December 2011, Tokom rata između Osmanlija i Venecije od god. 1463. do 1479.,Albanija postaje jedno od glavnih poprišta. {{citation}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |month= (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)) The Ottoman side emphasized that the main reason for Ottoman campaigns against Skanderbeg was his "breaking of faith" and allowing a Venetian forces to garrison in Kruje. Ottoman forces in Albania were threatened by them and because of that treat Ottomans organized campaigns against Skanderbeg after 1464.(Sir Hamilton Alexander Rosskeen Gibb (1954), The Encyclopaedia of Islam, vol. 4, Leiden: Brill, p. 140, ISBN 9789004144484, OCLC 399624, retrieved 24. December 2011, Tursun p.125, cf Critoboulos, 147) emphasize Iskender's "breaking of faith" as the reason for the Ottoman operations against him from 868/1464 onwards. By permitting Venetian troops to garrison Kruje he created a real treat to the Ottoman forces in Albania. In 1464 and 1465 the neighbouring sanjak begis and especially the governor of Ohri, Balaban, launched the swift attacks {{citation}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)). The article about Skanderbeg's incursion into Ottoman territory contains information about Balaban being appointed as governor of Ohrid, instead of Şeremet (Ballaban had replaced Şeremet as the commander in Ohrid after the latter fell out of favor with the sultan). The information that Balaban was sanjakbey of the Sanjak of Ohrid is important and should be presented in the article. The existing text ( Mehmed, sensing the weakness in his frontier, assigned Ballaban Badera as commander, replacing Şeremet. or Mehmed had marched into Albania with Ballaban Badera under his command) is misleading and confusing and uninitiated reader could get impression that Şeremet or Ballaban came to Albania from outside of Albania as commanders of the Ottoman armies. In fact, they were already present in Albania because part of the territory of Albania, with substantial population of ethnic Albanians, was the important part of their sanjak. They had important position of sanjakbeys of the Sanjak of Ohrid. As any other Ottoman sanjakbey they were obliged to recruit soldiers in their sanjak and to participated in war near their region. Both Setton and Babinger in their works presented on this page, emphasize information that Mehmed II plundered and destroyed area around Durres (part of Albania Veneta) before he left Albania. That is important information that should be presented in the article because it provides necessary context of this siege within larger Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479). June event: "Soon after, Mehmed's men marched into Albania...Skanderbeg had remained in Albania, however, but he had sent many inhabitants of Krujë to Italy as refugees in twelve ships. With them, he sent his wife, Donika, and his son, John. ."....August event: "On 16 August, around the time that Elbasan was finished,... Venetian faith in Skanderbeg's resistance began to subside,..Since the Signoria still had not delivered its promised aid, Skanderbeg sent his son John to Venice...John returned to Albania empty-handed"...The voyage of this 12 year old boy should be clarified. Last weeks of 1466 - During the last weeks of the year in Albania there was no fighting ... Mehmed launched a campaign against the Venetian possessions in Albania to pressure the Republic to accept peace or ceasefire...On Christmas Eve, Paul invited Skanderbeg to a ceremony - Very confusing. There was no fighting and Mehmed launched a campaign against Venetians (although he left Albania months ago and his forces were busy besieging Kruje). According to the above mentioned sources written by Setton and Babinger, Mehmed attacked Venetian possessions in Albania during the summer of 1466 not during the last weeks on 1466. If he left in August 1466 the only one who could launch a campaign against the Venetian possessions in Albania was Ballaban. And he was besieging Kruje. This needs to be clarified. According to the Babiner, the commander of the besieged forces was Venetian officer, Baldazarre Perducci. He is totally forgotten in the infobox. Instead, there is only Moneta mentioned on the bottom of the list, although he was not in the besieged fortress but in relief forces. Maybe it would be a good idea to divide information about besieged and relief forces and their commanders, like in other siege articles about Skanderbeg. February 1467 - This amount had not been gathered, however, and Paul thus offered Skanderbeg 2,300 ducats. - Offered or granted? What happened with that offer and 2,300 ducats? February 1467 - Ottoman force sent to defeat the League of Lezhë definitively, however, had been defeated. - What force, who defeated it and where? Spring 1467 - The once distant Albanian nobles, among them Dukagjini, were now convinced of their impending end and allied themselves with Skanderbeg. - If forces of other Albanian nobles were distant and if they allied themselves with Skanderbeg only in spring 1467, what is the reason for emphasizing that one of belligerents was League of Lezhë? Who (besides Venetians) fought against Ottoman Empire until April 1467?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC) Ballaban had raised his camp in hills southwest of Krujë and beneath Mt. Sarisalltëk, he placed a guarding force. The rest of his army surrounded Krujë.[29] Skanderbeg and his allies marched through the mouth of the Mat River and cut through the woods of Jonima to the boundaries of Krujë.[61] Skanderbeg's staff was assigned different groups for an assault on the main Ottoman camp: northern Albanian forces would be put under Dukagjini's command, Venetian battalions were under the command of Moneta, and Skanderbeg's most trusted forces would be assigned to another group under his command; Krujë's garrison would naturally defend the fortress. Moneta's and Dukagjini's men would attack the besieging forces from the north and Skanderbeg's men would attack from south of Krujë while also blocking any possible Ottoman reinforcements from the east.[62] Skanderbeg first assaulted the guarding force which Ballaban had left and he gained control of this strategic point.[29] Skanderbeg then managed to defeat Ottoman relief forces under Ballaban's brother, Jonuz, and captured him and his son.[63][29] Four days later, Ballaban ordered an assault on Krujë but was killed in the resulting clashes by Gjergj Lleshi (Georgius Alexius). - This description is confusing. Ballaban's army was divided and positioned: 1) in "camp in hills southwest of Krujë", 2) "beneath Mt. Sarisalltëk... a guarding force" and 3) force which "surrounded Krujë". Allied forces of Skanderbeg's supporters were divided to three groups, under command of: 1) Dukagjini, 2) Moneta and 3) Skanderbeg The battle: Dukagjini and Moneta attacked "the besieging forces from the north" Skanderbeg attacked "the guarding force" "beneath Mt. Sarisalltëk" "from south of Krujë" and gained control of this strategic point Skanderbeg defeated Ottoman relief forces under Ballaban's brother, Jonuz, and captured him and his son. Four days later Ballaban ordered an assault on Krujë but was killed in the resulting clashes by Gjergj Lleshi (Georgius Alexius) - What were they doing for four days, after they successfully attacked besieging forces from both South and North? If Skanderbeg managed to defeat one Ottoman relief force, why would he allow Ballabana to attack fortress four days later? How can Ballaban attack Kruje if there were Dukagjini, Moneta and Skanderbeg who were victorious against the besieging forces, guarding forces and relief forces surrounding Kruje from both North and South? Did Ballaban attack relief forces or Kruje? Other He thus requested the arrival of promised Venetian forces when they signed a treaty of alliance on 20 August 1463 and the promised contribution of 3,000 ducats. - Is it mistake in the year? Maybe it should be 1466? If it was really a treaty of alliance signed in August 1463, when Venice and Ottoman Empire were confronted and starting Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479) then this fact should be clearly presented to the readers. Skanderbeg allied with Ottoman enemy. Here Kenneth Setton explains that "documents relating to Skanderbeg's struggle with the Turks in 1466 are conveniently assembled in J. Radonić "Djuradj Kastriot Skenderbeg" so I propose to add Further reading section and include this work in it. (Radonić, Jovan (1942), Đurađ Kastriot Skenderbeg i Arbanija u XV veku (in Serbian), Belgrade: Srpska Kraljevska Akademija, OCLC 11859269 {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)) Here Kenneth Setton (page 279) says that Mehmed withdrew from the siege in June 1466, not in August like it is written in the article. That corresponds with what Babinger wrote here (page 260) that Mehmed II was near Durres on July 3rd. Both Setton and Babinger present information that Mehmed II plundered and destroyed area around Durres before he left Albania. That is important information that should be presented in the article. The Siege section can be expanded with above mentioned works of Setton and Babinger. the men stationed in Elbasan would constantly harass the Albanians, to leave them no place for refuge - Sultan did not build Elbasan to constantly harass people who are Albanians, leaving them no place for refuge. Ottoman Empire did not divide people on ethnicity basis. Babinger (page 253) explains that Sultan withdrawn with 3,000 Albanian prisoners. This information is not presented in the article. According to Marin Barleti, Skanderbeg's main biographer, - Main biographer?! 200 Neapolitan marksmen - There is no information in the infobox about this unit. Marin Barleti says that Mehmed passed through Dibra and massacred 8,000 people, a figure close to the number given by the Ottoman chronicler Oruc ben Adil of 7,500 - Babinger mentions 8,000 men from the Cedhin + many women and children. Cedhin is different than Dibra. This should be investigated. Babinger mentions (page 261) the son of Skanderbeg's sister (Skanderbeg's nephew) who was Muslim and part of the Ottoman forces. He ensconced on Cape Rodoni (which means that Skanderbeg lost Rodoni Castle during this events). There are many web sites which present information that Barleti claim that Rodoni castle was destroyed in 1467 by Ottoman forces. Minor issues The expression "second siege of Kruje" is not used in sources about this event, except one tertiary source which is very inaccurate in this case. and had grown close with the Western Christian states, especially with Alfonso V of Aragon and the Papal States - He had not only grown close with Alfonso V of Aragon but Ferdinand I of Naples too. In 1466 it was Ferdinand I who was the king, not Alfonso. He was vassal of the king of Naples from 1448. His vassal status is important and should be clearly presented in the article. Skanderbeg sent his son John to Venice. Even though the Albanian resistance was at its apogee, John returned to Albania empty-handed. - Skanderbeg needed help and sent his 12 years old son to get the money? I am not sure about it. Despite his inability to subdue Krujë, Mehmed decided that the Ottoman presence would not depart Albania. - This sentence does not make any sense. Why would Ottoman Empire leave Albania after 50 years of their presence there because there is one highland fortress which remained out of their control. "By the beginning of May, however, it was clear that Turkish preparations had been made for Albania. This was made clear when after ending his campaigns in Wallachia, Karaman, and the Morea, Mehmed moved his forces to the Albanian border. None of the promised reinforcements from Naples and Venice arrived and Skanderbeg was thus left to fight Turkish forces alone."...."News arrived from eastern Albania that the Ottomans had begun massacring the inhabitants there....Soon after, Mehmed's men marched into Albania."..."Skanderbeg did not expect such a campaign and his army was not ready to halt the advances." - Contradictory informations. Everybody knew, it was clear ... but Sk. did not expect it? (middle of 1467) The map which presents "Main Albanian towns during the 15th century, including settlements in neighboring regions" is not useful for this article. This article is about the siege of Kruje. The names of the towns on the map are so small that they are not visible. It is impossible to notice the position of Kruje unless you don't click three times on the map. (August 1467) Venetian faith in Skanderbeg began to subside, however, since the sultan took a much more aggressive approach in his relations with Venice. - Much more aggressive approach in his relations with Venice? Ottoman Empire and Venice were in the middle of the war - Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479). Ballaban had raised his camp in hills southwest of Krujë and beneath Mt. Sarisalltëk, he placed a guarding force. - Not much information about this mountain. Skanderbeg's only hope was for help to come from Italy - Setton and Babinger mention help of Ragusa in their above mentioned works. The story is not comlete without mention of this help and later Ragusan decision to forbid Skanderbeg to enter Ragusa. "Baldassare Perducci" - 8 hits /// "Baldizar Perduzzi" - 0 hits (4 hits to this text) Babinger published information about the (page 260) rumors that Skanderbeg was to surrender Kruje under mediation of the King of Naples, who became Ottoman ally. Taking in consideration that Skanderbeg was at the Ferdinand's court at the same time when there was Ottoman ambassador who signed peace treaty with Naples it is not strange that Babinger thought such information is worth mentioning. In the article about the Siege of Berat (1455) Skaderbeg is positioned at the bottom of the list of the commanders, probably because he was not present at the end of the siege. Instead there is a long list of local commanders before Skanderbeg, although Skanderbeg was responsible for big mistake when leaving the siege with sizeable contigent before capturing Berat "believing the situation was well in hand and that the castle would fall". But in case of this article the same logic was not followed. Although sultan did not even participate in the siege for most of its duration (Babinger says that he did not actively participate in the siege, but only occasionally and hesitantly), his name is positioned on the top of the list of the commanders in the infobox, while local Ottoman-Albanian commanders are not mentioned at all, except Balaban. On the other hand, Skanderbeg's name is at the top of the list although he was not in the besieged fortress at all. According to the Babiner, the commander of the besieged forces was Venetian officer, Baldazarre Perducci. He is totally forgotten in the infobox. Instead, there is only Moneta mentioned on the bottom of the list, although he was not in the besieged fortress but in relief forces. The same comparation could be done with other articles, like i.e. Siege of Svetigrad (1448). That was also a big defeat of Skanderbeg's men, and Skanderbeg is again positioned on the bottom of the list with clear remark that he only led the relief force, while real commander of the besieged town is positioned at the top. Important assertion about the number of the Ottoman soldiers is not referenced at all. (except in case of rumours Venetians have heard) Dhimitër Frëngu article says that he was Skanderbeg's scribe who accompanied him to his journey to Rome. If that is true, maybe this can be added to the article.

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

A lot of your suggestions are irrelevant so I skipped many. However, I have decided to implement the good ones.

Just a note, both Schmitt and Frasheri concur that it was John who went to the court of Venice. Neither mention how young he was, but I assume he played mainly a symbolic role and the real negotiations were done by the older men. Also, the destruction of Rodon happened after the next siege of Kruje.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 03:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Disruptive behavior

Antid, although you have been active on this article and talk page for more than a year, you waited till the end of GA to make again some "general comments" a month after it. It is a very disruptive behavior from your side. Aigest (talk) 08:25, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect. Two months ago (at the very beginning of the review process) I informed nominator that I prepared a list of hints which could help improving the quality of the article. And it did help improving the quality of the article because the nominator already addressed many points from that list. Here is a list before I removed many points already addressed by the nominator and copied it in collapsed form here to allow him or any other interested user to use it if they find it helpful. I believe that what I did is very cooperative and helpful. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:43, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I wonder why you waited two months to do that. Especially since you have been involved lately [8] in the article. I think you are just being disruptive. Majuru (talk) 18:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

You made mistake about my last involvement in the editing of the article and presented a diff to nominator's involvement, not mine. Here is the correct diff which shows that my last involvement was a month ago.

Regardless of the date of my last involvement the most important thing is the quality of the article. My activities are aimed to improve the quality of the article and help its promotion to GA level. I am glad that nominator addressed at least a dozen issues I pointed to.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:14, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Antidiscriminator

Anti is attempting to disrupt the reviewing process, a process that is almost finished. What Gaius did, was just ask if he could comment on the userpage, but A. didnt want him to [9]. Anti makes arrogant, unhelpful and negatively charged suggestions. He's already been warned on his WP:GAME, and unfairly places burdens on others, that he himself is unwilling to bear [10]. I think his strategy is to drag down the reviewing process. Many of the issues he brings up are raging POV topics. In all, I think he is a bad contributor. Majuru (talk) 10:31, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

@Majuru: With above comment you violated the following wikipedia rules:

1. Never address other users in a heading - "using headings to attack other users by naming them in the heading is especially egregious"
2. wp:agf - It can be seen as a personal attack if bad faith motives are alleged without clear evidence that the others' action is actually in bad faith and harassment if done repeatedly. During GA review the nominator has implemented more than 20 suggestions I pointed to, and by doing that he managed to improve the quality of article a little.
3. wp:npa - "Comment on content, not on the contributor." (he is a bad contributor.)
4. Wikipedia:Tendentious editing - Never attribute to malice that which may be adequately explained by a simple difference of opinion.

Please be so kind to avoid this kind of personal attacks in future. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:58, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Renaming?

Resolved

Siege of Krujë (1466—1467)?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I was going to do that.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:48, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

You are welcome.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:32, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

League of Lezhe did not exist after 1450

Per this explanation.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:56, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Below is additional source which confirms that League fell apart in 1450 which was 16 years before the event described in this article:

• Oliver Jens Schmitt (2012). Die Albaner: eine Geschichte zwischen Orient und Okzident (in German). C.H.Beck. p. 55. ISBN 978-3-406-63031-6. Retrieved 19 June 2013. Ein 1444 geschlossenes Adelsbündnis brach beim Anmarsch eines Sultansheeres (1450) auseinander. [Alliance of the nobles forged in 1444 fell apart when Sultan approached with his army [1450]

Because of the mistakenly presenting this league as one party in this conflict this article contains factually incorrect data and does not satisfy GA criteria. Until League is replaced with correct data the status of this article should not be GA.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:30, 19 June 2013 (UTC)