Talk:Shuttle bombing

General tactic

The tactic is a general concept, not just one that applies to the Second World War as the article develops, so other examples from other wars will come to light. --PBS (talk) 20:12, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily to the USSR

Although there were several missions to the USSR which can be described as shuttle bombing. The RAF operation Operation Bellicose involved North Africa, not the USSR. --PBS (talk) 20:12, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

see also

user:Mugs2109 you made this edit which placed a see also list at the top of the article. If there is to be a see also section then it should not be in the form of a "top note" at the top of the article but in a section near the bottom (see WP:SEEALSO). You will notice in the WP:SEEALSO states "A reasonable number of relevant links that would be in a hypothetical 'perfect article' are suitable to add to the "See also" section of a less developed one." So I don not think that this edit was a constructive one as it removes text from the article to create a see also list as a top note. --PBS (talk) 21:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that the version by PBS (talk · contribs) is the better of the two; examples always make it easier for people with no knowlage of the subject to understand what is being discussed. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:48, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Shuttle

I think some people editing this page are loosing site of what a shuttle is. The Oxford English Dictionary defines it as:

2.a: An instrument used in weaving for passing the thread of the weft to and fro from one edge of the cloth to the other between the threads of the warp. fly shuttle.

2.b. fig. and in similative use.

As an example of figurative use, think of shuttle diplomacy (where a person travels between two hostile capitals). As this is a figurative use: to be a shuttle it needs to go to from a base to another place and back again (that's what a shuttle in weaving does). The route of 617 Squadron was like a shuttle mission, but they did not sortie in both directions. We should only claim it as a shuttle mission if a reliable source also claims it was --PBS (talk) 07:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

In support of your concept, little fuss is ever made of air operations that begin at a home base, hop to a forward base for refueling, and then fly from the forward base into action. It doesn't seem worth shredding the shuttle concept to include this subtlety. The planes started from home base and returned, minor intermediate steps are not as notable as landing in a potentially hostile foreign country hoping for adequate support. Binksternet (talk) 14:03, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit change to the Warsaw Uprising

These are the quotes from http://paul.rutgers.edu/%7Emcgrew/wwii/usaf/html/Sep.44.html

SUNDAY, 17 SEPTEMBER 1944

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): The last UK-USSR-Italy-UK shuttle mission (Operations FRANTIC) is completed as 72 B-17s and 59 P-51s fly without bombs from Italy to the UK; 2 B-17s and a P-51 abort and a P-51 crashlands SW of Paris; 70 B-17s 57 P-51s land safely in the UK.

-

MONDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER 1944

Mission 640: In the last Operations FRANTIC mission, 107 of 110 B-17s drop 1,248 containers of supplies to Polish forces in Warsaw; 1 B-17 is lost and 7 damaged. Escort is provided by 137 of 150 P-51s (64 P-51s continue to the USSR), they claim 4-0-0 aircraft in the air and 3-0-6 on the ground; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots are MIA).

-

TUESDAY, 19 SEPTEMBER 1944

100 B-17s and 61 P-51s takeoff from bases in the USSR and bomb the marshalling yard at Szolnok, Hungary and continue to bases in Italy.

The text that I put together from that was:

During the Warsaw Uprising the Frantic airbases were used for an airdrop to the Poles fighting in the city. On 17 September 1944 70 B-17s and 57 P-51s fly without bombs from Italy and land safely in the United Kingdom. On 18 September 107 of 110 B-17s dropped 1,248 containers of supplies to Polish forces in Warsaw and fly on to the USSR loosing one B-17 and seven more damaged. The next day 100 B-17s and 61 P-51s left the USSR and bomb the marshalling yard at Szolnok in Hungary as they return to bases in Italy. (citing Combat Chronology of the US Army Air Forces September 1944: 17,18,19 copied from USAF History Publications & wwii combat chronology (pdf))

User:Mugs2109 why did you change the last sentence to this:

The next day Fifteenth Air Force B-24s(cite:Combat Chronology of the US Army Air Forces September 1944: 17,18,19) left the USSR{{Fact}} and attacked the railroad bridges at Szolnok in Hungary(ibid) as they return to bases in Italy.{{Fact}}

because I can not find any reference for "The next day Fifteenth Air Force B-24s" in the source provided? BTW why not ask me why I wrote what I wrote before changing it with a comment like the one in the edit history "Corrected text posted by User:PBS which differs from the text in the reference cited by User:PBS"? (see Wikipedia:Assume good faith), such a comment could be seen as a breach of WP:CIVIL.--PBS (talk) 18:45, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I think I have found the text you were using:

FRIDAY, 1 SEPTEMBER 1944

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 480+ B-17s and B-24s attack targets in Italy, Hungary and Yugoslavia; B-24s attack Boara Pisani, Italy; in Yugoslavia, B-17s and B-24s attack railroad bridges at Tesica/Moravac, Mitrovica, and Kraljevo, marshalling yards at Novi Sad and the airfield at Nish; in Hungary B-24s attack railroad bridges at Szolnok, and Mezotur, marshalling yards at Szajol, Debreczen, and Berettyoujfalu; 51 P-51s successfully strafe Debreczen Airfield, Hungary; 16 B-17s evacuate interned US airmen from Rumania; fighters support bombing and evacuation missions.

As this is for a mission flown on the 1 September and not the "next night" (19 September), can we now please put back the wording I was using which is supported with the information for the night 17th in the same URL? --PBS (talk) 21:06, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Maps

This page could realy do with a few maos to better explain the concept, but I've no idea how to draw/write them on here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.203.254.1 (talk) 18:53, 16 August 2012 (UTC)