Talk:Shunpiking

Removal of Shunpiking details

I have no problem with the article as it originally stood, as a definition of shunpiking and an explanation of historical practice, but as it stands now the article is too much of a howto. Would there be any objection to just excising the howto material? If no one objects in a few days I'll take it out. Night Gyr 22:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I object, for one. The fact that specific information is provided on where Shunpiking is taking place only makes the article that much more relevant. If anything should be done, the info should be ported over to the individual highway pages, with an appropriate link back to Shunpiking. Just removing the data into the bit bucket would be vandalism (in my eyes). Alansohn 22:22, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I also object. The information is relevant, and also would see it as vandalism. --71Demon 21:52, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I object but differ some in my opinion, as I think each subject is relevant enough for its own article. For now, they should definitely stay. --Caponer 23:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC) --Caponer 23:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it would be best to link to an external website, or as the previous person commented on having their own article. I had just updated a section with another alternate route avoiding the Delaware and Susquehana tolls. Rather than continue adding to the page, it may be useful to mention that it's possible to travel from Washington to New York without paying any tolls. Which I won't get into now. Also the U.S. 40 bridge over the Susquehana River, you can purchase a sticker for $5.00 and it is good for one year, allowing unlimited travel over the bridge, providing for a smaller detour.

I think the topic of "shunpiking" itself is definitely article-worthy. Andy Saunders 18:42, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is an interesting question. I think the specific shunpiking routes are certainly woth putting someplace. On the other hand, they are howto info, and they also probably constitute "original research," since the contributors have presumably driven over the alternate routes. On the other hand, they look funny somehow as parts of the articles on the roads they shunpike--someone had an Ohio Turnpike shunpike recently, and it looked unusual as part of that article. It would have made more sense on this page. Maybe these should all stay here where they are. I can't think of anything better.--Dr-t 15:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)Dr-T[reply]

How about wikibooks? I don't think the paragraphs on "How to Shunpike" are appropriate for wikipedia, though the concept itself of shunpiking is certainly worthy. Perhaps the individual how-to's could be placed in wikibooks? PKirlin 22:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just a heads up; all instances of shunpiking are being removed from the Interstate articles ([1], also I-68 and I-79, just to name a few). So heads up that this information is only here, but has fewer links to it. --MPD^{T / C} 15:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was the one that removed them, they're original research and it's spelled out pretty clearly that Wikipedia is not a travel guide (and since the discussion on this talk page, a consensus was reached to remove the shunpiking sections from the Ohio and PA Turnpike articles for this very reason). Alternate routes that are officially sanctioned and/or verified by a suitable source are certainly worth a mention, for example MD officially advertises I-68 as an alternate route to "Ohio and the West", and NJ police once advertised I-295 as a bypass of NJTP barrier congestion. However, detailed how-tos of arbitrary shunpiking routes are not.

I do think Pkirlin's idea for a shunpiking wikibook is a nifty idea though. Krimpet 22:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where shunpiking is impossible

One bit of discussion missing from this article (and I don't know enough about the subject to add it myself) is about when shunpiking is rendered impossible by either the state or by geography, i.e. when a city or region can only be accessed via toll roads. (The moral implication of this might be worth addressing too though it might be hard to maintain NPOV). A few days ago it was proposed by an official with the public transportation authority in Vancouver, BC that all bridges in the Lower Mainland become toll bridges (new and old). If this were to happen (it's pretty unlikely), the city of Vancouver (among others) would become inaccessible by road without paying a toll, no shunpiking possible (unless one used a mode of transportation other than vehicle). Aren't all of Manhattan's bridge connectors toll roads, too? 23skidoo 06:29, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No. The Brooklyn Bridge is free, and it is possible (though difficult) to get from upstate New York into Manhattan without paying a toll if you use, say, Broadway (US-9) instead of the Henry Hudson Bridge. I'm not quite sure, offhand, how to get from New Jersey to Manhattan without paying a toll, unless you go way the heck up to Albany and then come all the way back down. -Tckma 02:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

- They're a bunch of bridges closer than Albany. Are they all toll? In fact I think there's a free one in the Catskill area. Still not practical though. Or you could take the free ferry to Staten Island, walk/bike several miles then take the Bayonne Bridge to New Jersey. Unless they have tolls on pedestrians and bicyclists, which I've never heard of. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:20, 15 June 2012 (UTC) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:52, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Staten Island, on the other hand, is impossible to get to by car without paying at least $7.00 in tolls. Nantucket will cost a car owner $133 each way to use the ferry. -Tckma 02:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

- Probably cheaper to just send yourself and rent a car. Can you rent a car on Nantucket? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:20, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and don't forget the Confederation Bridge up in Prince Edward Island. It's the only access to the province and it costs $40 Canadian for a one-way trip! ~~dr-t 7/23/2006

Actually, the Confederation Bridge is $40 for a return trip; just like the ferries, you only pay for one leg of the return trip, the other is "free". --66.30.68.52 23:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)Zipster 8/6/2006[reply]

who introduced toll booths and turnpikes to american roadways?

Does anyone know the answer to this question?

I think Vanderbilt on his Long Island Motor Parkway in New York. Jgcarter 19:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Philadelphia and Lancaster Turnpike (1795) was one of the first, operated until 1917. I wonder if there was a time when no toll roads were operated; the first modern one was the Pennsylvania Turnpike (1940), and the Long Island Motor Parkway closed in 1938. --NE2 20:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Baltimore Tunnels

I think it would be worthy and relevant mentioning Ft McHenry Tunnel and Baltimore Harbor Tunnel in this topic under Maryland section. Or is it that only bridges are relevant for shunpiking? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.118.49.207 (talk) 23:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

criticism section

How is saying: if you drive farther you'll burn more gas OR or synthesis? It's a pretty obvious thing to say. And from there to: burning gas costs money, again, pretty obvious. And finally: if you burn more gas than the toll you wasted money. If you consider that synthesis you have a pretty poor opinion of your readers.

Is there anything wrong here? Do you seriously need a citation to say that burning gas costs money? Two editors so far removed a very obvious section citing OR and synthesis. I think people just don't want any mention of drawbacks to shunkpiking in the article. And I am aware that that is not assuming good faith. Well it's a little hard to when faced with such reasoning.

I'm going to put the section back, again, and ask people to respond here on the talk page, and we'll see where it goes. And, BTW, I did look for citations saying that wasting gas costs money, but couldn't find anything so obvious that was worth linking to as a cite. Ariel. (talk) 05:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Obvious or not -- and I have no doubt that it's true -- this is unsourced original research. Even if you find a source demonstrating that wasting gas costs money, you would need to find that in the context of shunpiking. Alansohn (talk) 05:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Using more petrol/diesel costs more money. That is as obvious as that 1 + 1 = 2. Do we need a reference to say that the sky is blue or that most daffodil flowers are yellow? I thought that the WP:OR rule stops short of total elementary obviousness. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:37, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Another case

I have shunpiked a few times :: I avoided the toll on the Cob at Portmadoc (and its long queue) in north Wales by detouring through Tremadoc.
The road bridge over the Tamar at Plymouth (UK) has a toll. But they let motorcycles over free. Motorcycles are very popular in Plymouth.

Once to save money, the people who ran the Severn Bridge (UK) started charging twice the toll one way and free the other way. So people used it the free way and came back through Gloucester and the Forest of Dean. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 12:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Word origin" section

The assertion that shunpiking may have had its origin in New Hampshire circa 1810 is conjecture and not supported by the written record. There were shunpikes in a number of states before 1810, including one in Morris County, New Jersey, which dates back to 1804; and one near Mt. Holly, Vermont, which was in existence at least as early as 1809. (Sources below.)

I think it would be appropriate to discuss some of these early turnpikes--including the one in NH-- under a heading like "Early turnpikes," rather than the current heading "Word Origin."

Sources: A newspaper article in the "New Jersey Journal" of 6 Mar 1804, (p. 4), references a house for sale on Shunpike Road between Morristown and Elizabethtown [Elizabeth], New Jersey. This "Shunpike Road," parts of which are still extant, was in existence the same year that the turnpike opened for business: 1804. It ran southwest of and parallel to the Morris Turnpike [now called "Old Turnpike Road.]. It was formed by the improvement and connection of sideroads to enable country people to avoid the expenses of the tolls. Shunpike road ran through the towns of Bottle Hill [now called "Madison"], Chatham, Summit and Springfield. [Bottle Hill and Madison : Glimpses and reminiscences from its earliest settlement to the civil war. By William Parkhurst Tuttle. Madison, NJ : Madison Eagle Press, 1916.] Re: the shunpike near Mt. Holly, Vermont: this shunpike is mentioned in an advertisement dated 23 December 1809 which appeared on page 1 of the 21 Feb 1810 "Rutland Herald."Jenzum (talk) 02:03, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Stan Shunpike (Harry Potter)

The word shunpiking is not widely used or understood in Britain where 'turnpike' isn't used to refer to modern roads. It's not impossible that the name Stan Shunpike derives from shunpiking but it seems unlikely. I'm going to add a citation request. --Ef80 (talk) 13:21, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]