Talk:Shish kebab

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Move

Why is this not titled as "Shish kebab" when that is the common English name?Correctron (talk) 01:32, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Blind revert

@Janissarywiki: I thought it was a good idea of you to make a separate "Etymology" section. I tried to improve the page further with some copy editing: correcting some spelling mistakes and fixing some grammatical, syntactical and typographical errors. I also tried to remove some of the redundancy (same things repeated several times). I was a bit taken back when you reverted my edit completely, also reinserting the errors. I am perfectly willing to discuss my edits, but that is a bit difficult when you have not explained what was wrong with them. Could you please take a second look at my edit and explain what you think was wrong and why. --T*U (talk) 16:41, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

1914 date

The second source that was added has a 1913 date and no mention of any novel. The 1989 dictionary can be considered superseded, this isn't in the newer edition. Seraphim System ^(talk) 20:58, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Seraphim System: can you point me to some discussion or decision on Wikipedia, that the Oxford English Dictionary, second edition, has been superseded and no longer considered a reliable source for etymology? --IamNotU (talk) 22:06, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The policy is WP:AGEMATTERS - if something has been dropped from a more recent edition there is usually a reason. We can't assume a previous edition is still reliable, especially when it appears to be contradicted by the second source you posted. You can also ask for additional opinions at WP:RS/N if you aren't convinced. Seraphim System ^(talk) 22:13, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not convinced... Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Oxford English Dictionary, second edition (OED2) superseded, no longer RS?. Can you tell me what the OED3 does say? I don't have access. It's difficult to imagine that they found an earlier source, and removed the 1914 one, but didn't add the earlier one. The second source (Marks) doesn't contradict the OED; it says "shish kebab a term adopted in English around 1913", not "first recorded written use in exactly 1913". It's consistent with people in New York starting to use the word, because of the Armenian restaurants, in the period prior to the publication of the book. The author identifies the events of the story as taking place in 1910. --IamNotU (talk) 23:37, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OED3 is available free on Google, and what you are trying to add is not in there. I don't know why it would be since dictionary's don't usually track literary usage. Something like this would have to be discussed in a secondary source, and I searched and didn't find any such source. It certainly doesn't help matters that the second source you added doesn't verify the content in the article, and actually contradicts it.Seraphim System ^(talk) 00:32, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OED Online does have an entry for shish kabab (subscription required). It still says that the first recorded English language use was in Sinclair Lewis's, Our Mr. Wrenn: the romantic adventures of a gentle man · 1st edition, 1914 (1 vol) in the form of the sentence "I'm sure you'll like shish kebab". Abecedare (talk) 04:51, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The recommended citation for that source is: "shish kebab, n.". OED Online. June 2018. Oxford University Press. http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/178327 (accessed July 17, 2018). Abecedare (talk) 04:56, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you read the history for that entry, it explicitly states that it has not been updated for OED3. That is, the version in OED3 should be identical to that in OED2. @Seraphim System: are you sure you were actually reading OED3? You might have been reading the free version of the site, Oxford Dictionaries Online, which does not contain as much detailed information: [1]. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:23, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again Abecedare for checking the online/OED3, and for the citation. Yes, as noted at wp:rsn, it was the Oxford Dictionary of English Seraphim System was reading, not the Oxford English Dictionary, "the world's most important reference work for the English language", which is what I cited. It's considered very reliable (far more so than Marks), and a secondary source, see WP:DICTIONARIES. And as I explained above, I don't see that what Marks wrote contradicts it. More than likely he looked it up in the OED himself, knew of the diaspora in New York's "Little Armenia" at the time, and estimated a date a little before the book's publication as the time when people were using it, as they were in the story - "adopted (not necessarily in print) into English", "around 1913" is consistent with the OED's first recorded use in print in 1914. There's really no basis here to doubt the authority of the OED. --IamNotU (talk) 07:34, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking at the pocket version and it doesn't mention it, and I don't think the dictionary can be used as an authority for etymologies - just a starting point. I mostly agree with the essay WP:DICTS on this. Based on the sources we only know the term was in use before this novel means was published, so the novel may be worth including as a literary mention, but it can't be presented as etymologically significant. The first literary mention of shish is from the 11th century Diwan Lughat al-Turk according to Charles Perry - this is a loanword so OED itself most likely based its etymology off the work of these scholars, since it's not an authority in Medieval Persian or ancient Turkic languages. Food etymology sections in particular are contentious, and taking these kinds of liberties with the sourcing and arguments has allowed these sections tend to veer into spurious areas that are often motivated by various nationalist rivalries - I'm not saying that's what happened here, but the editor's above stated position that the English loanword is rooted in NY's Armenian diaspora community needs a source to verify it before it's included in the etymology section. It's too easy for these etymology sections to spiral out of control, but I don't object to it's being added to a section about literarture. Seraphim System ^(talk) 14:30, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I moved this to a literature section, and added generally that it has been in use in the English language since the early 20th century based on input from User:Future Perfect at Sunrise at RS/n.Seraphim System ^(talk) 15:08, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge of Mashawi into Shish kebab

Unsourced article, looks like it's a synonym for shish kebab Spudlace (talk) 20:41, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not a synonym for shish kebab. It's the Arabic general word for "barbecue/grilled meat" (also mashwi, mashwyat, etc.) So a shish kebab is a type of mashawi, but so is a barbecued chicken leg. Unfortunately the barbecue article is very US-centric. The closest I can find is Regional variations of barbecue#Middle East and Eastern Mediterranean. --IamNotU (talk) 00:19, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to have to take your word for it because reliable sources are not to be found. Maybe it can merge into kebab then? I don't know if all kebabs are barbecued but the merge should be to the broader article, in this case it appears shish kebab would be too narrow. Spudlace (talk) 00:23, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kebab isn't right either. "Mashawi" isn't a dish, it literally is just the Arabic word for "barbecue" or "barbecued/grilled food", which is generally meat,^[1] but anything that's barbecued or grilled; kibbeh can be mashawi (grilled),[2] even barbecued/grilled salads.[3] As a foreign-language equivalent, the word should redirect to the "barbecue" article, because that is the common name in English, except that article is almost all about American barbecue. It would be a fair amount of work to adapt that article to an international point of view, though it's something that should be done eventually. --IamNotU (talk) 02:31, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PS, there isn't anything to merge anyway. The article was written a decade ago as an unsourced four-sentence description of what kind of barbecued food is eaten in Palestine, by an editor with eleven edits. Someone else said "this isn't specifically Palestinian, it's eaten in other Arab countries too", and just changed "Palestinian" to "Arab". There have been no changes to text since then. But then it's not specifically Arab either; the same types of barbecued food are eaten in Turkey and Armenia for example. It should just be deleted. "Mashawi" as I said could redirect to "barbecue" or "Regional variations of barbecue - Middle East and Eastern Mediterranean", or possibly to a subsection of Arab cuisine about barbecued food, but that doesn't exist. Or not - Wikipedia is not a translation dictionary. --IamNotU (talk) 03:48, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have gone ahead with a WP:BLANKANDREDIRECT of mashawi to Regional variations of barbecue#Middle East and Eastern Mediterranean, and removed the merge proposal template from this article. --IamNotU (talk) 15:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Ciezadlo, Annia (14 February 2012). Day of Honey: A Memoir of Food, Love, and War. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-1-4165-8394-3 – via Google Books.

Reason for pronounciation

In the Northern Pashto speaking Afghan area, the natives pronunce "sh" and "kh" as the same "kh", thus turnin "shish" and "seekh" into synonyms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dodamik (talk • contribs) 17:44, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Ciezadlo, Annia (14 February 2012). Day of Honey: A Memoir of Food, Love, and War. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-1-4165-8394-3 – via Google Books.

[1]