Talk:Shimon Tzabar

external linkage

this external link was removed:

• Shimon Tzabar's web site -- www.israelimperialnews.org

i've seen no indication that this is a personal page of shimon tzabar, and even if it were - it should not be added unless it holds a "bio" or "about us" section indicating it's seriousness. Jaakobou 14:21, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a web publication set up by Shimon Tzabar. It describes itself as "a magazine edited by Israeli dissidents." See the contacts page, which lists the editorial board: "Shimon Tzabar, Moshé Machover, Tzvi Havkin, Rami Heilbronn, Akiva Orr". It was one of Tzabar's main projects, and is mentioned in all of the obituaries. Of course it should be included in the external links. RolandR 14:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

give me a break, it says "against Israel's policy of ethnic cleansing" - (1) that's bad english, and (2) there's no way this is a proper encyclopedic external link/resource. (3) please do not revert blindly without thinking how poorly this "contribution external link" reflects on wikipedia. Jaakobou 17:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

You may well disagree with it, but please explain in what way this is bad English. Of course it is a proper link; it is this writer's own magazine, and entirely legitimate and appropriate. It would be unencyclopaedic not to include it. I never revert "blindly", don't be so superior and patronising. It is not Wikipedias's task to approve or disapprove of a writer's output; but it surely is our task to let others know where they can find this, and read it for themselves. RolandR 19:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia should link to publications, not to poorly edited blogs. Jaakobou 19:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Please do not revert back before discussion is over, I think this website should not be included on the external links because it's clearly not a source that should be attached to an encyclopedia that is supposed to maintain NPOV. Lizrael 22:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course a writer's own magazine should be included in an article about him. Stop trying to censor views you disagree with. RolandR 23:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

maybe if it were a real magazine rather than a low level website a 10 year old can make (and possibly add Shimon Tzabar's name to it?). this is unreliable anti-israel opinion pushing User:RolandR. -- Jaakobou 01:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

My dear Jaakobou, this article is about Shimon Tzabar, so it is reasonable to include his website, even if you don't like it. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 10:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Abu ali, it would be reasonable to add his publications, not an unencyclopedic website that we don't even know if it's really his. see other users' comments and stop disregarding them and inserting the disputed materials. Jaakobou 12:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course this is really Shimon Tzabar's own magazine; don't be so childish. As I note above, his editorship of this magazine was noted in all of the obituaries. I have requested protection to stop this foolisdhness. RolandR 12:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

i consider this name calling unhelpfull and I disagree with your POV and tag team warring style of "solving" disputes and enforcing those disputed materials into the article. Jaakobou 14:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Disputed materials should be discussed rather repeatedly inserted. It is inapropriate to disregard other editors. Stop adding the link! Lizrael 17:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Discuss by all means. But if you want the link removed, you will need to come up with a good argument for its removal. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 17:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Some of the comments above are, suggesting that Shimon Tzabar was not the editor of IIN, are both ignorant and silly. For a start, Israel Imperial News was not only a web magazine. I have in front of me the printed version from June 2001. With one exception, the text is identical to the online version, though the printed issue has more graphics (apparently the work of Shimon Tzabar himself). The magazine was priced "175p", and I bought my copy from Shimon in a demonstration in Trafalgar Square.

The only textual difference is the contacts information. In the print version, it states "ISRAEL IMPERIAL NEWS is published by Israel Imperial News, 27B Clifton Villas, London W9 2PH U.K. E-mail: shimon@tzabar.org Editorial board R. Heilbronn, S. Tzabar, M.Machover, Z.Havkin". The address was Shimon's home (do you want me to prove that too?), the email was clearly his, and the other editors (two of whom I know personally) are honest and genuine Israeli dissident activists and friends of Shimon's, who would certainly not have stooped to fraudulently adding his name.

So, unless someone wants to pretend that the whole thing was a giant fraud, forging the names of not just one but four activists, intercepting Shimon Tzabar's mail and email, and somehow persuading Shimon to go along with this and personally sell the forgery, then it must be accepted that Israel Imperial News was a genuine printed and web-based magazine, and that Shimon Tzabar was the central figure behind it.

Incidentally, the editorial in the June 2001 issue states that "we are renewing the publication of the Israel Imperial News". There was indeed an earlier print-only publication of the same name, in the late 1960s and early 1970s. As far as I recall, Shimon Tzabar was behind this, as well. I will try to find out more about this. RolandR 13:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Shimon Tzabar is listed as the owner of israelimperialnews.org at www.whois.ws and Eldad Druks, his life-partner's son, who maintained the web site, is listed as the contact. I believe this is proof enough that the link is valid.

Problems with the article

This article has been brought to my attention due to its frequent edit wars. I see the following problems with the article:

1. The lead section asserts Shimon Tzabar's notability as being on the editorial board of 'Israel Imperial News'. There are a few problems with this:

- The website isn't really notable, therefore, obviously, being one of its editorial staff is also non-notable. At the most it's semi-notable. Shouldn't this be secondary to 'Tzabar has written 27 books'? Which, assuming they were all published by a non-vanity press, is inherently notable?

- It is difficult to believe that Israel Imperial News is actually Tzabar's website. True, he's listed as one of the editors, however, wouldn't they have removed his name after death? The fact that they haven't implies that they don't even know who Tzabar is and did not work with him except possibly some loose online-only collaboration. Also they have absolutely no information about Tzabar on the site (wouldn't his death be a notable event for such a small website?), or in its 'archives' section. This is even assuming the Shimon Tzabar who is listed as their first editor is even the same Shimon Tzabar talked about in this article. It could be a pseudonym of someone who admires Tzabar. I am willing to believe the obituaries, however, Haaretz could be wrong too.

2. The link to Israel Imperial News, which seems to be by far the most linked to so far, is actually not very important and has absolutely no information on Tzabar, even if he did edit it. Therefore, shouldn't this link be placed at the bottom of the list, if at all? Also a description should be added, for example: Israel Imperial News, an online magazine Tzabar co-edited?

-- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 18:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The lead section says that he is editor of Israel Imperial News but does not assert that this is the reason for his notability. The Better than Michlin Guide episode which is referred to later in the article is sufficient to establish notability. I have no objection tyo moving the IIN link further down and adding more describtion. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 09:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

the "Israel Imperial News" blog is a ridiculous non encyclopedic link allegedly from a man that has published and illustrated real books on top of some 3rd rate blog that we have no clear cut way of knowing his role/participation on it. Jaakobou 19:05, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you even read what I wrote above? IIN is not a blog, but a "real" magazine; it was both printed, and publidshed on the web. I don't know why you insist that it is "allegedly" by Shimon Tzabar and that "we have no clear cut way of knowing his role/participation on it" -- the evidence that he edited it is far stronger than the evidence that William Shakespeare wrote Hamlet, and, as I norte above, the argument that he was not involved requires belief in a huge conspiracy, in which Shimon Tzabar himself took part. Quite apart from the inherent unlikeliness of this scenario, nobody has suggested why there should be an attempt to link him falsely to IIN.

My suspicion is that the deniers want to suppress the link altogether, in order to prevent Wikipedia readers from linking to its well-written and devastating critiques of Israel's behaviour. There is absolutely no legitimate reason for censoring the link to Shimon Tzabar's magazine. RolandR 20:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

we're all devastated here from the criticisms. i'm planing on writing this into a biography style over an agenda filled mission statement. Jaakobou 07:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)