Talk:Shiloh Shepherd dog

GA Fail

I'm afraid I have to quick fail this GA nomination, due to lack of citations throughout. There seems to be a single inline citation, and one reference to an external site. Additionally, the lead should be extended, per WP:LEAD. Until the references are sorted though, no full review has been done. Carre 20:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Quite. An article, to be GA-class especially, must verify information with reliable sources and attribute particular facts to particular sources through citations (either in footnote or Harvard reference format). VanTucky ^Talk 20:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, if you review the References section, you can see that many different reference materials were used, the citations simply aren't inline. Shell ^babelfish 18:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I was aware of that. However, if you read the GA criteria, inline citations are expressly required. If you don't attribute particular facts to sources through inline cites, then the reference material is nearly worthless. Leaving it up to the reader to hunt down what source verifies what fact is not GA-class work. VanTucky ^talk 19:04, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

• smacks forehead* I remember now -- the breed clubs were complaining about one getting more links than the other and ended up listing them as text. I've fixed that, changed the lead to summarize the text, re-ordered it, removed some weasel words, removed extra photos with little purpose, added additional references and clarified some information. Any other suggestions or things I may have overlooked? Shell ^babelfish 21:05, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Good work, but are Shilohs frowned upon or disqualified in regular Shepherd circles like whites are? For the sake of NPOV, I think the relation between Shiloh breeders/enthusiasts and the mainstream Shepherd community needs to be dealt with more. VanTucky ^talk 22:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Very frustrating

None of the reference links are live. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.15.65.19 (talk) 06:42, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Lack of Photo

I have a Shiloh from a certified breeder. We chose not to breed her (as one of her ears flopped over). She is a white Shiloh Shepherd. I will photograph her, upload the image, and make the image public domain, and link to it from the page. Unless, of course, a Shiloh breeder objects to a white Shiloh image in which case they can make their own image available. SunSw0rd (talk) 20:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

OFA stats

Just wondering why it is necessary to state OFA statistics on this article when no other dog breed article seems to make that reference. Also, the comparison to GSDs throughout the article is confusing as the Shiloh Shepherd is a different breed altogether, so what is the relevance? The King Shepherd article has none of these references so why does this one?

Gremlyn (talk) 23:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

OFA stats The current reference was a minor correction to article previously reading "Shiloh Shepherds have a lower incidence of HD in comparison to GSD's and other shepherd breeds. However, I see your point...breed comparisons may not be necessary within the context of this article. Smcmac (talk) 02:17, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that statement likely came about because the article incorrectly stated the opposite in the lead. As for the comparisons, they are probably there because the breed came from German Shepherd stock. See similar comparisons in Cockapoo for example. Breeds that are farther removed may only mention their ancestor breeds in the history section rather than give comparisons elsewhere. I don't feel strongly about it remaining though, but I did put back in the reference to OFA that Smcmac removed; it's important that material in the article be verifiable so citations should remain even when the wording is improved. Shell ^babelfish 10:19, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your consideration. Linking to the general OFA stats seems fair. Gremlyn (talk) 13:20, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 3 March 2020

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was withdrawn as redundant. Cavalryman (talk) 10:28, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

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Shiloh Shepherd dog → Shiloh Shepherd – All of the sources call the breed “Shiloh Shepherd”, not “Shiloh Shepherd dog”. Cavalryman (talk) 11:26, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Withdrawing proposal as redundant due to merger. Cavalryman (talk) 10:28, 14 March 2020 (UTC).

• Support per WP:CONCISE, as for German Shepherd, White Shepherd, King Shepherd, etc. 94.21.238.148 (talk) 15:43, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support - WP:CONCISE. William Harristalk 08:23, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Either keep as-is, or better yet move to Shiloh shepherd dog per MOS:LIFE, which only sanctions the capitalization of standardized breeds, not landraces, crossbreeds, hybrids, feral groups, or any other population of animals. Best of all, just merge to German Shepherd Dog as a section. This should retain the natural disambiguator to be WP:CONSISTENT with every single other case in which we have addressed an animal breed name that could possibly be confused with a population or occupation or other description of humans: Talk:Brown Caucasian cattle#Requested move 24 January 2018, Talk:Australian White sheep#Requested move 24 January 2018, Talk:Algerian Arab sheep#Requested move 11 August 2015, Talk:British White cattle#Requested moves 19 December 2014, Talk:Flemish Giant rabbit#Requested moves, Talk:West African Dwarf goat#Requested move; we always move the breed article to have "dog" (or "Dog" if the word is a formal part of the breed name; or "cat"/"Cat", "goat"/"Goat", as appropriate; for the capitalization distinction, see examples like Norwegian Forest Cat and American Quarter Horse versus Tonkinese cat and Calabrese horse.)

  The premise for the move proposed above is simply not correct. Two of the main sources of any information at all on this crossbreed or "experimental breed" are its larger breeder groups (which are primary sources but are good ones when it comes to WP:ABOUTSELF matters like how they actually refer to their "product" with people not already familiar with it): Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America and International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club. (There's also something called International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, without "Dog", but this appears to simply be another name for Tina Barber's Shiloh Kennels, i.e. it's a personal business not an organization, and only relates to the original Barber-foundation-stock lines anyway. And see below about trademark.) Dog-focused writers also tend to spell it out when writing fairly formal material ([1][2][3][4][5]), in the same vein as they spell out German Shepherd Dog; in almost all cases, the "Dog" is part of the official name of the "Foo Shepherd Dog" breeds in every major breed registry/kennel club because it is naturally ambiguous. As with all breeder and fancier materials, less-formal writing tends to abbreviate the name (in this case often to simply "Shiloh"), but this is the same case as cat writers saying "a Persian" when the context is already clearly about Persian cats; any time the "we already know it's a breed name" context cannot be 100% guaranteed for all readers (and WP is obviously such a case), even the breeders use fuller expressions like "Siamese cat" and "German Shepherd Dog". The two Shiloh breed standards I've found do not include "Dog" as part of the formal breed name (though a major kennel club would include it, if this is ever accepted as a breed, since they do it with all the other "Foo Shepherd Dog" breeds). So, the present article title is either correct as-is, if we take these one-variety breed clubs as meaningful when it comes to breed establishment; or if we do not, then it should move to to "Shiloh shepherd dog", capitalizing only the proper name in that.

  WP:NPOV problem: In the course of looking into this, I have found that Tina Barber (and I think now her daughter, who seems to be presently running ISSR) assert that the precise phrase "Shiloh Shepherd" by itself is a trademark (the ISSR breed standard has "Shiloh Shepherd^™", and there's legalese about no permission to use the breed standard if not affiliated with her organization). There are nevertheless breed clubs that have forked away from and are not associated with ISSR/Shiloh Kennels at all. By moving this article to "Shiloh Shepherd" without "dog", we would be WP:UNDULY aligning with the Barbers' intellectual property claims, which appear to be subject to real-world dispute. [I'm reminded strongly of Ragdoll cat which had a similar "this breed is mine" origin story and associated problems; the end result in that case was the breeders who would not pay the breed originator for the privilege of using the name forked the breed into the Ragamuffin, which has stand-alone recognition in some registries now. In this dog case, the split hasn't gone that far (yet?). Something similar to this has happened at least once among the various groups of people trying to develop the American Pit Bull Terrier into new, larger breeds.]
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:35, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

• Support per WP:CONCISE. To use the word "dog" would be incorrect. Preceding unsigned comment added by Kristina0z (talk · contribs) 02:51, 14 March 2020 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.