Talk:Seven fires prophecy

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Indigenous peoples of North America: Anishinaabe

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Please expand

please give further suggestions on this topic. it is too stub. i think its an important section of Red indian mythology. please add your views to the talk page and expand the article.

nids 21:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be no discussion of the Seventh teacher who is expected to come in the time of the seventh fire. I wonder why this has been omitted.

Because nobody have not expanded anything beyond the 5th and I have already expanded this article from something really short, very POV. This can be rounded out more fully, but it would be so much better if a knowledgeable midew who can also find appropriate citation could expand the article without devulging the finer mysteries of this series of prophecies. In addition, depending on the community, there is still a debate on if we are currently in the "sixth" and coming close to its end or already in the "seventh". The "eighth" proponents are the ones who say we are already in the "seventh", while those who are not part of the "eighth" proponents say the "seventh" is quickly approaching. CJLippert (talk) 21:59, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The most startling thing I have learned about this prophecy is that it is almost identical to the prophecies of Enoch in describing these same 8 epochs of man. The original Book of Enoch that is not the Keys of Enoch which is a very recent channeled work. Enoch was one of the ancient scriptures sacred to the Hebrews and presumed to have been holy scripture in the times of Yeshua ben Yosef (called Jesus by the Pagan cult of Rome). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.248.67 (talk) 06:26, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Um. The Jewish Canon, even during the Roman occupation, was and still is considered "The Books of 22[+2]" arranged as the Teachings-Tellings-Recordings order (a.k.a. Law-Prophets-Writings (Torah-Nevi'im-Ketuvim or "Tanakh")... and Book of Enoch is not one of the 24. Like Tobit and Judith, Enoch, though, was at one time supportive literature. There are no periods expressed in Enoch, but there were seven "tellers of events". Enoch is concerned with a single mashiach. The "Seven fires prophecy" is nothing like Enoch. It specifically relates events that ushers in each period, the major themes of each period, and how each period ends, consequences on heeding and not heeding, and if not heeded, what action must take place to mitigate the undoable actions. Implied but not explicitly mentioned in the seven, the "eighth" also speaks of us as a single human collective saving the world and not an individual appearing from somewhere, thus putting the onus on us. In this sense, though still a religious teaching, the message is very humanistic. CJLippert (talk) 21:59, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a Nishnaabe-Odawa from Sheshegwaning I just wanted to say that these prophecies are not "Mythology" but actual historic accounts of our migration from the east coast to the great lakes region. We are not "Red Indians" we are Nishnaabeg: Odawa, Bodwaadamii and Ojibwe/Ozhibwe. We are real people with a living history that we have kept alive through oral and now written means. We know who we are and where we come from and these prophets are as real to me and other Nishnaabeg as Muhammad or Buddha are to their respective religions and histories. 99.209.49.162 (talk) 20:05, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just a comment

It's sad to see this talk page start off on such a bad semantic foot.

Firstly, I agree that more should be added to this topic. Into the future, Algonquian tribes will be debating and clarifying this issue further, as many tribal leaders anticipate a crossroads of sorts, not only in tribal policy, but also in approach to the Fires Prophecies. I am almost astounded, let alone offended, that these traditions and events are termed figments of "Red indian mythology." I'm not sure if the poster is a native English speaker, but certainly a more tactful characterization was possible. As far as this being a relevant entry, as someone who has been involved first-hand with Algonquian culture and Midewiwin ceremony, I can assure the wikimunity that these dogmas embody one of the central debates among Native theologians today. I propose a removal of the tags placed on the page.

Notability

I do not dare to doubt that this subject is notable, since I am not a subject-matter expert. However, the article does not cite independent sources. This is required, however, for meeting the notability criteria of Wikipedia.

Please add independent reliable sources to the article. (The web sites given are not undoubtably independent, so they do not suffice.) These sources can be, but need not be, available online; you might as well cite books on Algonquian culture, or newspaper/magazine articles, or any other third-party publication where the subject is mentioned.

For the time being, I am removing the "importance" tag and replacing it with "notability".

Sorted as part of the Notability Wikiproject --B. Wolterding 18:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A PLACE FOR CITES -- AND A STRANGE LIMIT SET

First, second section states: ". . . .it would be so much better if a knowledgeable midew who can also find appropriate citation could expand the article without devulging the finer mysteries of this series of prophecies." [ed: bold added for emphasis]. I am simply curious why an 'encyclopedia' would withhold information central to the subject matter.

PLACE TO FIND CITES: I once did an independent project on Native American time keeping systems. I had access to a data base very much like PubMed for science, and ERIC for education, only this one was for Cultural Anthro and contained ERIC-like cites: both peer-reviewed, and so-called 'fugitive' literature, along with photo-copies of journal entries on a topic (from both lay and professional people). An example of a Layperson entry might be a diary entry by a pioneer that mentions a particular event or belief that was witnessed or explained to them, a 'Professional' entry might be by a govenment "Indian Agent" in a journal, or notes taken by an early cultural anthropologist or sociologist about a formal interview, or informal conversation with an informant. And I guess you could also say that there were 'para-professional' entries as well, notes made by 'trading post' owners or physicians who tended individuals or tribal areas, etc.

For the life of me, I spent about 6-8 months living in a room with the card-file of microfiche (about half the size of ERIC) and I can't recall what it is called. At the time I had been given the name, asked the Librarian where it was, and from then on simply went into that room, and pulled cards and chased leads through the stacks -- but never learned the name well enough to recall it 40+ years later. PERHAPS SOMEONE COULD POST THE NAME OF THE INDEX? -- and state if it's useable on-line or has on-line access, and if there's a fee - what that fee is for being able to read more than the Abstract.

thanks. Pgalioni (talk) 19:20, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unpublished, primary documents are not good sources for Wikipedia, as per WP:SOURCES; stick to "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." The Saginaw Chippewa museum is designed completely around the concept of the Seven Fire prophecy, so there is adequate information that is available to the public for the article. -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

Personal commentary

Here's some personal commentary that I removed from the main article space. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:30, 22 February 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

from another Anishinaabe view the prophet Tenskwatawa WAS the false prophet, who killed many sachem (High Cheifs) from amoung the Anishinaabe. Typically these victims were strapped to wooden poles and brained with a calumet and lit on fire, I know this well as 5 of my forefathers were the victims of this man, which led many away from the traditional beleifs of the Anishinaabe, of course, murder is a great deterent, ask the United States Government, they would agree, they practice the same. -166.248.150.59

reliable source

This book is a children's book from 1988. It is the sole source for most of the article.

Benton-Banai, Edward, The Mishomis Book - The Voice of the Ojibway (St. Paul: Red School House Publishers, 1988).

Is this prophecy described in any academic literature? Jonathan Tweet (talk) 02:42, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if you look into Indigenous Anishinaabe authors many have written about the 7 fires and how this is used a theoretical framework for understanding our place in generations. Have you ever heard of the 7 generations theory? The prophecies are the root to this theoretical framework. I would suggest reading Leanne Simpson to start.

Also even though the Mishomis book is a "children's" book it is a treasure amongst Nishnaabeg as it was one of the first times Midewewin teachings and stories were published in an effort to not let these teachings and histories become lost or unknown to the majority of our people. It is an authoritative source as the author was Mide and got push back from other Mide at the time of publishing the book. Now they are more open and willing to share a society but they used to be more closed off and seclusive. 99.209.49.162 (talk) 20:10, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]