Talk:Seven Sleepers

300 - 309 years

Qur'an said it was 300 plus 9 years they were sleeping. If they slept in cave in Decius reign around 250 CE and woke up 10 478 CE, it only took about 228 years. Anybody ever read qur'an

Yes, but you'll note the section where it gives that reference is under the heading "the Legend" and also makes a reference to the Sleepers being accused of "Christianity". Perhaps you should create a seperate section to retell the Qur'an's account? 69.153.15.61 20:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Primarily the story is of uttermost significance as it marks a convergence of Islam, Christianity and Judaism; and in a way not implicitly conflicting. It is a tale of a miraculous account, at first sight; but it seems that a rational explanation may be the point. Allthough the rational explanation, which I believe is the message of the Qur'an and Muhammad's account, which makes one of the proofs for his prophetic status, regarded as such by the Medinaian Jews, and, subsequently, the representatives of the Meccan tribes. It is a most radical and unbelievable explanation. There is allready a strong notion relating to the 300 Solar years/309 Lunar years, hinting to the story as rather allegorical concerning the question of calendars, accounts of time, and fundamentally the forces of historyfalsification (especially within the Roman empire). It may very well be that Muhammad (PBUH) and some of his followers did ally with Jews/Nazarean Jews (e.g. christian jews) on the question regarding to what extent the falsly christianized Roman Empire did manipulate the history of the Empire since the revolutionary times of Catalina and Ceasar. Mohammad's stand in regard of calendars, this device of historiography as well as communal advent, is provably of pivotal concern for Muhammad. This is most obvious with how he dismisses the practice of embolismatic months, i.e. the Metonic cycle; and how the Hijri-calendar's seven day week negotiates between the conflicting Parthian-Sassanid (Zoroastrian) and Julian applications of the perpetual seven-day week. It may be that the Jews/Nazareens of Medina had calculated that 300/309 years had vanished over time; summoning a rememberance of the opressed pre-Muhammadan muslim lineage, the people of the (platonic) cave, or even of Ephesus representing the primary church in the symbolic imagery of the Apocalypse of Saint John. Historically Ephesus being the mother synagogue of the nazareans, after the Jewish diaspora, also further related to the story of St. John bringing Mother St. Mary to Ephesus, the previous main centre for mother-virgin (Artemis) worship in the Hellenic world. My point here is simply that what is signified by these years in the Qur'anic text, or in the Golden Legend, may very well not be empirical years, but referential to the ability, possibility and factuality of time being an instrument of fabrication, for those powerful enough. --Xact (talk) 22:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

The legend predates Islam, and should be reflected in the article 95.149.54.29 (talk) 11:33, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Christian mythology?

User:Str1977 has methodically gone through articles included in the Category:Christian mythology removing them. This article was one of those removed.Perhaps not in the interests of the non-indoctrinated Wikipedia reader? I have no opinion in this particular case myself. --Wetman 09:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

If you have no interest, why then post here? Your claims are wrong: I only removed those I though inappropriate for various reasons and if you wish I can classify them on the category talk page. A main difficulty is the equation of mythology (which is rather small in Judaism and Christianity) and legend and folklore. This article deals with a legendary account. Note also that I addressed a load of problems this article was suffering from. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 02:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I published a paper which was aimed at examining this mythology. his research for the first time, employed "Five-Pronged Juxtaposing" approach, i.e. references from Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS), Second Temple Judaism, early Christian history, the history of the Roman Empire and astounding connections found in the Qurʾān. This research claims that Quran also talks about Essenes once "Juxtaposing John’s “chaste” quality from a reference in Qurʾān with the same quality found in the Essenes compels the same yardstick to be used that was applied in linking the Essenes’ “chaste” quality with the Qumran community based on references in Josephus and Pliny". This theory claims that internal evidence from the Qurʾān forces scholars to see that the Essenes, John, and Jesus were all together at one point, at one time in one community. This research concludes that Seven Sleepers of the Cave were Essenes follower of Jesus who ran away from fear of Pharisees and Sadducees from 34-70 CE instead of 251 CE. According to Rashid once these Essenes Sleepers woke up, based on the Qurʾānic timeline of 309 years, the year was probably between 339-400 CE, in same years, Trinitarianism was accepted as the Roman state religion in 381 CE. Probably, being empowered, linked it with Decius’ persecution of 250 CE to dominate and own it". I am sure this section deserves addition as it has been critically examined, passed and published by renowned European research journal. please comment.Rashid37009 (talk) 19:16, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

References

Change of Quran title

I didn't think this was too unreasonable. There is no reason why the 'holy' was there, as far as I can see. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cronos2546 (talk • contribs) 23:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Teutonic myth

Just reading about teutonic myths, Mimer (one of the asa-gods - Odin was the ruler) was slain, and his seven sons fell to sleep, to awaken at the Last Battle. The ancient belief was that if it rained "on the day of the Seven Sleepers" it would rain for seven weeks thereafter. (Teutonic Myths - Donald A Mackenzie 1995 page 89). This predates christiality..... 80.195.154.213 10:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

It may antedate the Christianization of Northern Europe, but we have no way of knowing whether it antedates Christianity, since we have no written texts from the centuries BC in northern Europe.

65.213.77.129 (talk) 17:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

If they are awaiting the Last Battle, then they are still sleeping - a crucial difference. 2600:1700:CCD0:DFC0:54:1738:4E82:27C (talk) 22:34, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Islamic Version

I think this section of the page reads like a POV and needs to be edited for neutrality: "The events that preceeded revealing the story of the 7 sleepers in Surat "Al-Kahf" is a proof that the Quran contains words of God and not Mohammed's words..." Estr4ng3d (talk) 19:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

For that matter, why is the Quran version presented as a VERY extensive quotation with a commentary to follow, while no Christian source is quoted verbatim and no significant Christian commentary is included? Big POV problem here. 192.91.147.34 (talk) 04:33, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I fully agree with the POV concerns raised here. I think this situation has arisen partly because the Islamic portion had more commentary, etc. immediately available--maybe the thing to do would be to look into the Chrisitan interpretation of this alleged miracle; something from the Church Fathers, perhaps? I used to be an Eastern Orthodox Christian, and while I'm not sure how many Western Christians have even heard of this story, it's still told in the Eastern Church, where they are even today still considered to be saints. Maybe there's some elaboration, some kind of commentary, in the Eastern sources. I no longer have the interest in this particular subject that would be necessary to do all that research, but maybe someone else does... - Ecjmartin (talk) 13:22, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi everyone, first of all, I must apologize to everyone for editing page without first discussing here. I was alerted by the Chris Troutman. In fact, my research paper has been published in a European research journal on the same topic. This scientific paper has been reviewed by renowned biblical scholars of renowned European universities that can be seen in the reference. If I can not write on this page or probably don't know how to contribute then someone must advise me because this paper is a turning point in the understanding of this tradition. please advice how can I contribute to this article.Rashid37009 (talk) 19:12, 12 June 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rashid37009 (talk • contribs) 18:58, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

I have read this article "A New Theory on the Seven Sleepers of the Cave". The contribution is an established scientific research and warrants access in this august forum as a new thing. It would promote vigour amongst researcher and would shed new information. The suggested addition is "Recently a new research based on empirical evidence taken from the Dead Sea Scrolls suggests a new dimension in the realm of this tale. This analysis suggests the Seven Sleepers, possibly Essenes inspired by Jesus, sought refuge from persecution around 34-70 CE, not in 251 CE. It proposes a waking period around 380-400 CE, coinciding with the acceptance of Trinitarian Christianity as a Stat religion in 381 CE. The correlation with Decius' persecution in 250 CE may seek to associate and validate the narrative within a historical timeline". (reference: Rashid Iqbal, (2017). “A New Theory on Aṣḥāb al-kahf (The Sleepers of the Cave) Based on Evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS)”. Al-Bayān – Journal of Qurʾān and ḤadĪth Studies 15 (2017). DOI 10.1163/22321969-12340044. pp. 43.) Shumaila021982 (talk) 12:41, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

References

"Muslims also venerate them as saints."

This is a vast generalization. Perhaps some Muslims venerate them as saints, and if this is true it should be indicated which groups do this. Otherwise, you are tainting all Muslims with the same brush and misrepresenting the religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.117.16 (talk) 11:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

some concerns

I agree that this article is heavy on the Islam, which the Seven Sleepers story predates by centuries. I have added a reference to the BHG number. The statement "The story is one of the many examples of the legend about a man who falls asleep and years after wakes up to find the world changed" reads like original research or a line from some folklore class. It could reappear further in the article under a new section of "scholarly interpretation" or such. Also, to say that "The story has its highest prominence, however, in the Muslim world; it is told in the Qur'an" implies that just because it is in the Koran means it is highly prominent. The story was widely known and read in the Christian world until recently when it was removed from the Roman calendar. This has nothing to do with the Koran. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 11:42, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs

She fell asleep for some time and the dwarfs worked in a cave... modern literary connection perhaps, no? 2600:8806:205:700:ECBD:1F95:7ABA:81ED (talk) 02:50, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Rip Van Wrinkle?

Anyone else notice this is similar? Increase the number of sleepers and time slept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.62.86.225 (talk) 20:19, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Distinction: 2 versions, one Christian and one Muslim

The confusion starts already with the DEFINITION in the lead, so it naturally affects much of the article.

I understand it's a Byzantine-period Christian tradition, based on pre-Constsntinian memories.

Islam came later. The Muslim Koranic version differs in several essential details.

One cannot write about "the" legend and its translations etc. without specifying: which version, Chr. or Muslim? Simply not the same. Interaction is another, separate topic.

Misunderstood PC leads to more of just that: misunderstandings. Arminden (talk) 20:34, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Taxo in the Assumption of Moses

It seems plausible to me that the Christian and Islamic stories may have some inspiration from the story in chapter 9 of the Assumption of Moses. My breadth of knowledge on this is very small, I'll just post here this link to a paper. 176.29.58.66 (talk) 05:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)