Talk:Seven Hills, Henderson, Nevada

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not moved. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 02:43, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seven Hills, Nevada → Seven Hills, Henderson, Nevada — per WP:MOS 67.180.161.183 (talk) 00:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. What part of WP:MOS warrants such a move? Current naming conventions put U.S. place names at place, state, with additional disambiguation only if necessary. older ≠ wiser 17:37, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You see, districts of cities always go District,City, State. Like Sunset District, San Francisco, California or Watts, Los Angeles, California. 67.180.161.183 (talk) 19:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Well, no they don't actually. There is a lot of inconsistency, because some editors try to apply pre-disambiguated names unnecessarily. But the basic naming convention for neighborhoods is the same as for any U.S. place name -- it should have the simplest name unless disambiguation is necessary. I'd suggest that Sunset District, San Francisco, California is incorrectly named and should be at simply Sunset District. Watts, Los Angeles, California is so named because there are many things that are known as Watts, which is correctly a disambiguation page. For counter examples to those you've given, consider Haight-Ashbury or Norma Triangle, West Hollywood West, Coney Island, Llewellyn Park, and I could go on, but that should serve to indicate that there is not a convention to name neighborhoods as District,City, State. older ≠ wiser 19:51, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I agree, but this article cannot be at Seven Hills because that's ambiguous, and Seven Hills, Nevada is the naming convention for a U.S. town or village, which this is not. This does seem to be somewhat similar to the Watts example. Another format used for neighborhoods is Seven Hills (Henderson) or Seven Hills (Henderson, Nevada). Station1 (talk) 20:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the above. The current name implies that Seven Hills is a city (I was picturing a peaceful town in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, but that's not important) rather than a district. 67.180.161.183 (talk) 21:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seven Hills, Henderson seems indicated. Henderson is less well-known than San Francisco, but that raises the question of whether this development is notable, not whether we should add unnecessary disambiguation. (Btw, where a neighborhood is reasonably well defined, there is no problem with Neighborhood, State; the Census districts, like Lincroft, New Jersey leave us with this all the time.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:51, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Neighborhood, State or Neighborhood, City both don't seem right. Lincroft, New Jersey is incorrect to me. If it were to be renamed, it should be Neighborhood, City, State. 67.180.161.183 (talk) 21:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lincroft, Middletown Township or Lincroft, New Jersey; Lincroft, Middletown Township, New Jersey is unidiomatic. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:14, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(after ec) Lincroft, New Jersey might seem incorrect to you, but it is perfectly acceptable for the Post Office. In fact addressing a letter for zip code 07738 as anything other than Lincroft, New Jersey, would be incorrect. The comma convention in the U.S. is in large part widely used precisely because of postal usage. There is some rationale for extending it (place, state) to other unincorporated places, but in my opinion, the comma convention breaks down when a third level of comma-separated disambiguation is inserted. Constructs like Foo Township, Bar County, State, are defensible where townships are geographical subdivisions of a county. But using the comma convention with three levels for neighborhoods or districts within cities is very awkward and rarely to be seen in common usage. Since disambiguation for "Seven Hills" is necessary, I'd prefer Seven Hills (Henderson, Nevada) rather than Seven Hills, Henderson, again because the rationale for the comma convention is familiarity based on postal usage. I'd think "Seven Hills, Henderson" is not a commonly used form. I'll acknowledge that the parenthetical form is equally artificial -- but with the distinction that by not using the comma convention it thus avoids potential confusion by persons used to seeing City, State, and instead having to parse Place, City. Parenthetical disambiguation, so far as persons might be familiar with Wikipedia conventions as well as with normal language, might more readily understand that the parenthetical portion is an add-on to the base name meant to qualify the base name. Seven Hills (Henderson) might be acceptable if Henderson were unambiguous. But since it is not, Seven Hills (Henderson, Nevada) is my recommendation. older ≠ wiser 03:21, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Is there another Seven Hills in Nevada? Nobody confusues Paris with Paris, Texas, or London with London, Ontario. If there is ever a second "Seven Hills" in Nevada, let's deal with the problem then. In the mean-time, Seven Hills, Nevada does the job; "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." (Strong oppose to "Seven Hills, Henderson" - I've heard of Nevada, but before this discussion I had never heard of "Henderson", and doubt that I will ever hear of it again once this discussion concludes.) Pdfpdf (talk) 08:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you get it. Seven Hills is not a city! Or a town, or a village. It's a district. Sure, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but it is broke! And show me one example of District (City, State), because I can find a million instances of District, City, State. 67.180.161.183 (talk) 16:11, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

N.B. - Lincroft, new Jersey is not a district, so it doesn't count. 67.180.161.183 (talk) 16:13, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by district? The article doesn't use the term and I don't see any definition in Nevada or Henderson articles. From the description in the article, it appears to be a housing development, which would most likely be comparable to neighborhoods in other cities. There used to be more, but it appears the comma-obsessed have been at work enforcing uniformity. There are still some examples of Neighborhood (City, State); for example, Hazelton (Youngstown, Ohio), Harvard Terrace (Toledo, Ohio), Clarksville Historic District (Austin, Texas), Woodside Park (Silver Spring, Maryland), Rosedale Park Historic District (Detroit, Michigan). older ≠ wiser 16:37, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lincroft is a suburban neighborhood (once rural); it is, like much of New Jersey, older than modern real estate techniques. I don't think it matters, but some of its houses were nineteenth century farmhouses, some were built by the owners in the first half of the twentieth century, some by developers, more often street by street than in the sweeping Levittown manner. But it is called by either form I mentioned; Lincroft (Middletown Township, New Jersey) would be acceptable, but cumbersome and less helpful to readers who have heard of it and don't know what municipality it's in. Seven Hills is a planned neighborhood, but I don't see why the names should differ. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:37, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I get it. Just 'coz I have a different opinion to you, that doesn't mean I don't get it. Yes, it's some sort of sub-urban area rather being a city. However, to me, that does not merit making things complicated.

It seems to me that you missed my point, so I'll try "saying" it differently - If "Seven Hills" by itself is inadequate, (and I think we all agree that it is), then it needs something to uniquely identify it. (In the absence of contradictory information), it seems that it is uniquely identified by "Seven Hills, Nevada". That seems simple, effective and adequate. Why must it be more complicated than that? (It doesn't seem "broken" to me.)

It seems to me that you and I are talking about differences in opinion here, more than disagreeing about actual facts. (Whereas Bkonrad seems to be providing facts.)

Observation: To a non-US person (like me), it's a bit hard to understand why this is "a problem" worthy of such emotion and such lengthy discussion. I don't think there's a lot more that I can usefully add to the discussion without repeating myself. (Never-the-less, that won't stop me from reading further discussion! ;-)

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 18:07, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tangent: Did you realise that WP "automaticly" converts [[aaa (bbb)|]] to [[aaa (bbb)|aaa]]? (However, as Bkonrad observes, the comma-obsessed prefer not to take advantage of this ... ) Pdfpdf (talk) 18:07, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why is there such a huge discussion? All I asked for was a simple move. THEN argue. It seems to be much more controversial than it was meant to be. 67.180.161.183 (talk) 22:51, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I think I should get my own vote. Plus, a little support is nice :P 67.180.161.183 (talk) 16:14, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, your nomination is your vote. Vegaswikian1 (talk) 04:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Seven Hills is, I believe, a neighborhood that is a planned community. It is home to the Rio Secco Golf Course. I'd do more digging, but time is limited now. Vegaswikian1 (talk) 04:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.