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"But it's true"

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Previous discussion at Talk:Konstantinos Speras

As for this Revert. What Speras did "two decades later", is irrelevant to the Serifos strike. Cinadon36 (talk) 07:30, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

its a simple footnote about this prominent figure of the strike. To provide consensus write one line only if you wish: he had affairs with NS parties. 4 words only. Ok?Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:36, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Simple footnote or not, it still is irrelevant. Maybe @Czar: could provide a comment. Cinadon36 (talk) 07:47, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
ok. I think this is the only solution that is left for you. So from now on, no more jokes, only censhorship. I really dont mind. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 08:26, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Removing nonrelevant staff from WP is not censorship, it is sticking to the policy and guidelines of WP.Cinadon36 (talk) 09:36, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
i think it is your last solution,cause you said many things and bring 0 R.S. So now it is a dead end for you. Stick in the rules to delete the truth, i dont care my dear friend. Saludos friend just stay with your censorship, it is the only thing that you are able to do. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:47, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The footnote is not particularly relevant to the Serifos strike itself, but it could be, depending on how that section is expanded re: Speras. I would leave it for now, since we agreed to merge, but it makes sense to eventually remove if no one will source any additional info about the strike. We don't have much else to discuss re: this article without sourcing on the Serifos strike. (not watching, please {{ping}}) czar 22:00, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Czar: @Cinadon36: i put the source about Speras (some words) in the topic of Anarchism in Greece. Could you check if the later history of (the most) prominent anarchist of Greece, is irrelevant or not with the topic? Thank you in advance. I hope 'Kostopoulos' is still a RS. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 22:41, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think it fits better here than there, but also feels like we're shoehorning a sentence into a place where it doesn't belong. We need more source material on Speras and once we write about his life, whether it's in context of Serifos or Anarchism in Greece, this sentence/footnote can be added at that time. czar 23:24, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Czar: When agreeing to merge the two topics, I thought that the basic info about Speras would be inserted in this article. Not if he attended a ceremony on behalf of a Union 20 years after the strike- which is put in a weasel way aiming to a create a narrative that Speras was a nazi. Cinadon36 (talk) 04:47, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
and a police informant according to RS of Yanis Kordatos. The only weasel way that i know is yours. You bring 0 R.S you just ask only for censorship and you are providing different excuses by the time. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:23, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
a)Don't comment on users b)Kordados is a publication of 1952 if I recall correctly. c)It is not censorship, it is sticking to the policies of WP. As WP policy clearly states Content will be removed if it is judged to violate Wikipedia policies (especially those on biographies of living persons and neutral point of view) Cinadon36 (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
a.i comment your way -as you did- not you. b. Kostopoulos is a RS also, and says the same things. c. There is a RS but you prefer censhorship. But it's ok. If you can you write, if you can't, you forbid. I understand.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:07, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • We can only merge what is actually sourced. Looks like the best solution here is to salvage sourcing from the Greek WP article on Speras and build out the section on the strike within this Serifos article. If more information on Speras's life is warranted at that point, I think it's reasonable to footnote it, but yes, most important is to actually source the Serifos strike section before delving into any minor detail. (not watching, please {{ping}}) czar 03:14, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We can not salvage anything from the Greek article which is based on blogs (x15), primary sources and OR plus it is POVish to the maximum -in the lede it states that Speras, ideologically moved to national socialism while there is no source claiming that- it just Αντικαθεστωτικος's conclusion (in September 2016) after taking into consideration the many ridiculous non-RS sources he placed in the article. It is obviously shaped by Αντικαθεστωτικός [1] A lot of cherry picking, POV and OR just to shame Speras. I 'd suggest dear @Czar: we wait for the arrival of the book you ordered, and I hope it will make all of us a little bit wiser.Cinadon36 (talk) 05:43, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Czar:, in the Greek W.P my articles (and for Speras) are for years without any problems. Check whatever you want, i am very proud about my contribution in El:WP. Also the others users, have the same view for me, as a good -propaganda free- user at least for my articles. My articles don't have POV problems at all. I am not a propaganda agitator, but a hoax hunter. It is true that i used primary sources, and blogs. The usage of blogs is for one reason, the one blog was the first that discovered the history of this person. I can delete it, i don't care. Kostopoulos says the same, that's why i use primary sources in the overview of secondary sources. The others blogs were for minor things.
Also, the other user confuses what is a primary source. Yanis Kordatos , Λιβιεράτος, Δημήτρης are greek self taught prominent marxist historians. All the articles of Greek working history are based of Kordatos. Livieratos is the same and trotskist anti-KKE.
I also used the blog of the self taught right wing historian D. Koukounas. 1. The content is also in a book-magazine of Koukounas. And says that he was in the cyrcle of axis collabarators.
primary sources are from Avraam Benaroya (a myth of Greek working history). From apostolos Kokmadis the officer (later communist) who was with Speras in 1943 and says that Mercuris (of the fascist party) send them.
For important things i use primary sources but i also put secondary source to overview the claim. I can make another article of Greek Wikipedia without any primary source. It won't change anything. Kostopoulos says the same with the primary sources that i use. Also i used R.S from Chondromatidis who in Greece is consider a better source than Kostopoulos.
Finally as i am an libertarian, and i follow the rules of W.K i have put also the other view. But i find it only from primary source of -NOT an intellectual- Agis Stinas. Stinas had none political influence during all his life. And in 1980 he became a cult personality for anarchists, because they wanted to prove that anarchism in Greece has roots in the past. This is a hoax! Anarchism in Greece was dead in 1918, after the foundation of KKE. Greece is not Spain!
Maybe i will put mr Apoidis opinion that Speras was an pacifist anarchist in 1944 (he was dead then) with Tamptakos the well known Leninist. I don't have problem. I am very sure and confident about the truth of my view, that i dont' ask for censhorship for what i don't like. Bring what you find from mr Apoidis, and i will put in Greek W.P.
Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:39, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Czar: I forgot to answer about the claim of Cinadon36 as he wrote : it just Αντικαθεστωτικος's conclusion (in September 2016) . Historian Hondromatides says in his book ανάμεσα στα στελέχη του Μερκούρη ξεχώρισε ο πρώην αναρχικός συνδικαλιστής Κώστας Σπέρας. I translate: :among the executives of Mercouris distinguished the former anarchist trade unionist Costas Speras Οι Έλληνες <<Φασίστες>>. Οι Φασιστικές και Εθνικοσοσιαλιστικές οργανώσεις στην Ελλάδα του Μεσοπολέμου (1927-1936) ΙΑΚΩΒΟΣ ΠΕΡ. ΧΟΝΔΡΟΜΑΤΙΔΗΣ Εκδόσεις Πελασγός Αθήνα 2013 σελ 161 . Hondromatides is considered in Greek W.P as a R.S. No one ever said that he is not a R.S in Greek W.P. Prominent (leftists) historians use his uptodate work of Hondromatides about the Greek fascism.
So it is not cherry picking at least for the standard of Greek W.P. As for English Wikipedia we can leave only Kostopoulos's opinion about the fact (i can provide all the newspapers) that Speras wrote in National Socialist newspaper. Only this!
Generally speaking, flat earthers, holocaust deniers, Katyn massacre deniers will always speak about ridiculous arguments. As a hoax fighter i am very used to this. I don't to propaganda, so my articles in Greek Wikipedia have never a POV on them. And i have write a lot of articles. I was among the first in Greek Wikipedia that spoke about guerilla fighters with numbers from 100% uptodate historians and not from memoirs of guerilla friendly sources. See this if you have time Execution of Major General Franz Krech. It's my translation of (i have the main contribution) Greek article. In Greek battles of ELAS 1, for the most prominent victim of KKE 2 3 for enemy of KKE. I never any problem in Greek W.P where i am consider as a propaganda-free user. So please check everything, and if you found one lie that i wrote, don't bother with me again. But please friend, i guess that you like anarchism, but before that, you must like the truth, because from errors of any ideology, the ideology will go forward and don't do the same mistakes. If we hide the truth we are like criminals. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 13:33, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't speak about ridiculous arguments, but I was talking about ridiculous sources ie blogs, or leading experts with 0 citations in peer-reviewed journals. Cinadon36 (talk) 16:15, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I received the wrong section of Apoifis so I have to figure out the exact page range before trying again.
I don't know the processes by which the Greek Wikipedia (elwp) finds sources reliable but on enwp, part of our process is to avoid the appearance of original research by sticking to secondary sources. Something is amiss if a paragraph becomes a conglomeration of old newspaper clippings, self-published blog posts from scholars, and sites with dubious reliability. Usually that would indicate that a journalist or scholar hasn't found that point/fact to be noteworthy enough to mention in a reliable, secondary source. Accordingly, why would an encyclopedia cover something so insignificant? The counterargument is that this logic becomes circular if the point is important and those reliable, secondary sources haven't caught up with the truth. I think I posted this article in the last talk page discussion, but I'll post it again: http://chronicle.com/article/The-Undue-Weight-of-Truth-on/130704/ (Our job is to present the sources, not to find the truth.) It sounds like you've done a lot of research that needs to be published in some journal somewhere so that we can use it as a source in the future. But in terms of now, and what we can do with this Serifos article, we need to find reliable, secondary sources that discuss the Serifos strike in broad strokes so that we can paraphrase it for this article. Happy to talk nitty gritty after that point, but there is little use until we first cover the basics. (not watching, please {{ping}}) czar 19:19, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Czar: That article made me laugh! But anyway, we can wait a little longer for Apoifis proper section- Rome wasn't built in a day!. I hope you are not paying for those chapters.Cinadon36 (talk) 20:09, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Czar: you didn't understand what i wrote. I am very sorry about my english. I cant explain in a better mode. you have confusion about my arguments. In Alexandros Schinas there are only primary sources and you defend them. In contrast about Speras i put ONLY secondary sources. but as you wishΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 20:43, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(This gets off-topic but the New York Times cited in Schinas is a secondary source. The difference between citing a ref written by Schinas's co-worker (primary source) and a New York Times piece that quotes Schinas's co-worker (secondary source) is that the editorial body of the NYT exhibited discretion in choosing to report what the co-worker said as worthy of print. A different discussion, though.) czar 03:29, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Czar: different topic, but you are the same user. You cite primary sources of 1920 of NYC with the journalist claims of this war time for facts fot ....Greece(!!!), but in the same time you forbid historians like Hondromatides, Kostopoulos, Livieratos, Kordatos and you claim that they are primary sources(!). I think my english are very bad, but the problem is not my english but you want your anarchist POV. We have 2018, alone citations from newspaper of 1920 is a bad joke for Greek Wikipedia. But i don't know the standars of En Wikipedia, and if any standard exists in reality. For sure i will write the truth for Schinas from prominent historians, and i will delete your primary sources and your POV. If you forbid me again, i will inform the community about the anarhist POV that you enforce. For me end of discussion. I will put 10 (at least historians against your newspapers of 1920). Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:22, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Typical whataboutism + attacking a user. I advise Αντικαθεστωτικος to strike all inappropriate comments (ie forbids).Cinadon36 (talk) 09:38, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Continued at Talk:Alexandros Schinas czar 19:40, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The 'Notes' tab should be removed

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In my opinion, the 'Notes' tab in the article should be removed as in my opinion it is pointless to have an empty tab within the article. Xboxsponge15 (talk) 10:20, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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