Talk:Serbs of Montenegro/Archive 1

Archive 1

Bias Without Control

All I can say is WOW! Few articles on Wikipedia are as full of misinformation and propaganda as this one. I don't even know where to start with complaints. A complete overhaul of the article is urgently needed! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.64.250.26 (talk) 13:04, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

That was true about five years ago (it was probably the head of one of the Serb parties there who wrote it then) but is in no way the case now. It is just as it should be. 98.85.119.6 (talk) 16:17, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

it`s still biased. There were no Serbs or ANY other nationality before 19th century in present day Montenegro or anywhere else in the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.241.252 (talk) 08:32, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Untitled

Why is "nationalist" not NPOV? The People's Party is Conservative, the Democratic Serbian Party is national-democratic; the Movement for Changes is liberal, the Socialist People's Party is social-popular... If you don't think calling the Serb People's Party "nationalist" is NPOV, than you must most definately agree with calling the Serb Radical Party that way. No? --PaxEquilibrium 16:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Vuk

Please note - I know Vuk S. K. is simply of Montenegrin origin in the long run, but he is to be mentioned here as he is mentioned as a prominent Montenegrin by many famous researchers (Slavenko Terzic, etc...) and he himself expressed his Montenegrin origins. --PaxEquilibrium 17:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, then put it in subsections (i.e Prominent decendants of Serbs of Montenegro (hope to be on that list myself one day :-))) and source it. --estavisti 19:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Will do. The source is Vladimir Corovic's book "History of the Serb People". However, I would still like the answer on the "nationalism" bit to the up. --PaxEquilibrium 20:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

"However, I would still like the answer on the "nationalism" bit to the up." Ово ми није баш најјасније. Шта хоћеш тиме да кажеш? --estavisti 20:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The "nationalist" Serbs' parites... --PaxEquilibrium 21:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Notable Montenegrin Serbs

At least 3 of the people listed are NOT Serbs, but Montenegrins by nationality.I don't want to be accused of vandalism again,so I suggest that Filip Vujanovic Miras Dedeic and Petar I Petrovic Njegos should be removed from the list for obvious reasons.Sideshow Bob 18:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

There is absolutely no reason to remove Petar (yes, Montenegrin nationality - but Serb ethnicity); Miras is a man from Bosnian Krajina with little or no Montenegrin blood; he only became the head of the MOC because he was defrocked because of various reasons (and there is no real evidence that he's Montenegrin at all, even by nationality). Filip is a Serbian born in Belgrade, with indirect Montenegrin origin present. He remained of Serb nationality only until recently, when he became a fervent Montenegrin nationalist (pretty much like the case with Milo), so that does qualify him to be here (I left out Milo Djukanovic because of his far too rightist attitudes). --PaxEquilibrium 18:59, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Nationality is defined by how a man feels, not necessarily by their origin and ancestry. So thus I'm still convinced that Vujanovic and Dedeic should be removed from the list.As far as Sveti Petar Cetinjski is concerned,read his Short History of Montenegro, from the Serb nationalist website njegos.org,and you will see that he reffered to his people as to Montenegrins.Leave his aspirations of bigger,united empire with Serbia,and there is nothing left to prove the thesis about him being a Serb from Montenegro.It doesn't make sense to put random rulers from the Petrovic dynasty in the same 'notable Serbs' pool along with Obrenovics,Karadjordjevics and certain war criminals.They have nothing in common and you know that. And also, I would like you to explain me what difference you see between terms "nationality" and "ethnicity", since people are confusing them for each other frequently here. Cheers. Sideshow Bob 03:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I checked the terms in the ol' Constitution of Montenegro, etc... I am not mixing nationality & ethnicity - the Nation was Montenegrin - and the ethnic group that held majority, according to the census (over 90%) was Serbian - I clearly differ ethnicity and nationality (however, here deserve to be listed Serbs from/or Montenegri either by nationality, ethnicity or both). --PaxEquilibrium 14:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Part on Djukanovic WAS NOT neutral, and Movement for Changes is not pro-Serbian party. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.66.187.53 (talk) 09:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

This article as of present is very biased, violating NPOV, has no sources at all, and appears to be promoting an agenda

This article as currently written dedicated on promoting a view of victimization of the Serb people of Montenegro, and in my view promoting Serb nationalism in Montenegro as it speaks in the intro of the "pro-Serbian" newspaper in Montenegro - that judgement itself is POV. Moreover this statement "Despite differences, all these parties, forming practically the whole of the Montenegrin Assembly outside of Đukanović's jurisdiction (almost half of it) share one common thing - opposition to the current autocratic regime of Đukanović and absolute rule of his Party" is extremely biased and POV. These are just a few examples of the poor quality of material currently in this article. In addition all the website links at the bottom of the page link to various webpages promoting Serb irredentist claims to Montenegro such as one which talks of the "Serb land of Montenegro" as well as links to specific political parties promoting Serb interests in Montenegro. I am fully aware that the communist regime of Yugoslavia promoted a republican Montenegrin identity over the previously strong ethnic Serb identity held by many people in Montenegro in the past, just as the communist Yugoslav government promoted a republican Bosnian identity over the various ethnic identities there, but this should be stated as a fact and a reality but should not be used to promote a sense of victimization of Serbs as that is a point of view (POV). There is no use of references at all in this article, with multiple lists of statistics that have no references to verify them, making the entire article dubious at best. An expert on this subject is needed. Demands for reorganization of the article have been in place since October 2006! The NPOV problem needs to be addressed immediately. Considering that the article has no references at all, I recommend a total rewrite of the article which should have a large base of scholarly sources.--R-41 (talk) 02:48, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I have just asked an administrator, Ground Zero to overview this article and to set a course of action on how to improve this article.--R-41 (talk) 03:24, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

- "Serb land of Montenegro" isn't irredentism, since it is not equal to "Serbian land of Montenegro". It is an ethnic territory, a historical region of the Serb people (one may read the history before posting). Serbs currently build 3 states separately, namely the Serb Republic (Republika Srpska) in the coalition with the Federation of BiH, Republic of Montenegro, Republic of Serbia - in all these states they build a constituent people. Germans e.g. have 3 such states, Austria, Swiss Republic, Germany. The Rus people also; Belarus, Ukraine, Russia. By hijacking the Serb identity of the historical region, for the new nationalist Serbophobic goals, one may very well interpret their position in a view of victimization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.191.185.159 (talk) 23:44, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

This section needs references and needs to be made more neutral in point of view

This is a section that needs to have more references and have a more neutral point of view:

"The Montenegrin Serbs are autochthonous to the region of Montenegro, and they composed the (only[6]) vast majority of the Demographics of Montenegro until 1948 when the previous 1931 80% strong community dropped to 1.67% due to Yugoslav regionalization politics by Tito (Through advocating a separate identity of "ethnic" Montenegrins), that resulted in gradual weakening of the Serbs of Montenegro, finalized with the Montenegrin independence and forming of separate Montenegrin Orthodox Church"

I am aware that Tito did promote a Montenegrin nationality that did in large part replace the long-held Serb nationality in Montenegro. But this needs a citation to show when and why he did so. Furthermore this article makes a point of view that these policies by Tito were negative with the term "weakening". That is a value judgement, and due to NPOV policy on Wikipedia, there is no legitimacy in placing such a value judgement in the article. Lastly, connecting Tito-era policies to the Montenegrin independence movement by claiming that the "weakening" of the Serbs of Montenegro was "finalized" by independence of Montenegro is completely fallacious and in violation of NPOV because it is making a value statement and is flawed because Tito-era policies are not directly connected to the Montenegrin independence movement and furthermore, the number of Montenegrin citizens identifying as Serbs increased in response to the independence movement. The demographics need to be found, but I propose the following, more neutral substitute for the above statements:

"The numbers of Montenegrin citizens self-identifying as Serbs massively dropped as a result of regionalization programs of communist-era Yugoslavia. However in response to the Montenegrin independence movement, a significant revival of Serb national identity in Montenegro has occurred."

--R-41 (talk) 03:43, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Errors in famous Montenegrins box (these people were Montenegrin Serbs, not explicitly ethnic Montenegrins)

Nikola I Mirkov Petrović-Njegoš, king of Montenegro - declared himself as an ethnic Serb of Montenegro, not as explicitly Montenegrin. He is the author of the famous song "Onamo 'namo" also known as the Serbian Marseillaise.

Marko Miljanov Popović - Miljanov wrote that during an attack by the Montenegrin Prince Danilo on the Kuči clan (Miljanov's clan), the Kuči's shouted: "Do not attack your Serb brother, o Montenegrins, may your cheek be black, as it is if you act so against your brother!". Message to the Austrian ambassador to Montenegro: "Tell that Austrian deputy, to tell his Emperor, should God turn him over to good, to then unite the Serbdom: Bosnia and 'Erzegovina, Montenegro, Serbia and Old Serbia, and to make that the Serb Kingdom. Such statements indicate his ethnic identification as Serb rather than explicitly Montenegrin."

Krsto Zrnov Popović - eventhough an opponent of the Belgrade regime and the dynasty of Karageorgevich which sought to annex Montenegro into one Serb nation, stated the importance of Montenegro in general Serbdom: "Crna Gora ona zemlja đe se čuvala i sačuvala iskra slobode Srbinove / Montenegro the land where the spark of the Serbs freedom was kept and preserved" Krsto Zrnov about Serbdom. Such statements indicate his ethnic identification as Serb rather than explicitly Montenegrin.

Princess Jelena Petrović-Njegoš of Montenegro - belonged to the Petrovic-Njegos dynasty which traditionaly declared themselves as ethnic Serbs rather than explicitly Montenegrin.

These people should be noted under the section Serbs of Montenegro and not explicitly Montenegrins.

Reverted move to "Serbian Montenegrins"

I reverted the move to "Serbian Montenegrins". That name is obviously not suited for labeling this group.--Zoupan 02:58, 25 December 2012 (UTC)