Talk:Septimus Burt

Yinnetharra or Yinniethana

This edit changed Yinniethana to Yinnetharra, but I've reverted it. Both of my sources:

• Australian Dictionary of Biography
• Biographical Register of Members of the Parliament of Western Australia

clearly say Yinniethana. Do we have a specific reference that says Yinnetharra? Mitch Ames (talk) 12:04, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I've copied this post from Septimusearle verbatim from his talk page, so that the discussion is all on one page for easier reading.

Mitch - All references to Yinnetharra Station on the internet are spelt this way. I spoke to an Audrey Horley, daughter of George Burt who was the son of Septimus Burt who confirms this spelling also. It is quite common knowledge in the north west; knowledge of this station that is.

Mitch Ames (talk) 12:09, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Can you please provide specific (eg an URL, if it's on the internet) reliable, published sources that spell it Yinnetharra? It's not that we don't believe you, but verifiability is important. Note that it's not enough just to have mention of a Yinnetharra - the ref needs to be clear that it is the same property that Burt co-owned. I've got two specific verifiable references (one of them on the internet) that say Yinniethana.

It is possible that my references are wrong, or that the property name has changed since Burt's time, and if that's the case we need to note the discrepancy in the article. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:24, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

58.161.153.73 changed it to Yinnietharra, but still no reference, so I've reverted it to Yinniethana, per my references above. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:54, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I've copied this post from Septimusearle verbatim from his talk page, so that the discussion is all on one page for easier reading.

Mitch- Yinniethana is spelt Yinnetharra. Please do your own internet rersearch on the North Western Australian cattle pastoral station. I dont think a reference should be placed for every spelling clarification. Yinnetharra Station was given to George Henry Burt JP- youngest son of Septimus Burt and husband to Margaret Forrest and father to George Henry Burt jnr (died in infancy) Mary, Francis Sinclair and Audrey. If you like, further clarification can be found in the book "Crossroads, a Journey through the Upper Gascyone" by Bonnie Milne 2009 or just simply type in Yinnetharra Station..It is currently owned by Dave Robinson and his family, who also own; Dorrwarrah , anothern former Burt property.Septimusearle (talk) 05:53, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Mitch Ames (talk) 13:00, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I did my "own research" and found two reputable references that explicitly state that Burt owned or part-owned a property called Yinniethana. Quoting from those references (I've added the bold):

Burt, Septimus (1847–1919)
... Other pastoral properties of which Burt became part-owner included Kadji Kadji, Brick House, Yinniethana, Red Hill and Minne Creek.

BURT, Septimus
... also part--owner of Red Hill, Brick House, Yinniethana, Kadji Kadji and Minne Creek properties;

It would help us resolve this discrepancy if you could do some or all of the following:

• Provide a specific URL to a web page that says that Septimus Burt owned or part-owned a property called "Yinnetharra". (I searched, and could not find one. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just that I need your help here.)
• Provide a quote from "Crossroads, a Journey through the Upper Gascyone" that says that Septimus Burt owned or part-owned a property called "Yinnetharra".
• Provide some evidence (URL, quote from RS etc) that the property was renamed from Yinnethana to Yinnetharra.

I'm doing my best, but so far we have two references that explicitly support "Yinniethana", but I still see nothing that says Burt owned a property spelt Yinnetharra. At best, you've got WP:SYNTH linking references to a current property with a previous owner, but no definite "chain of evidence". Mitch Ames (talk) 13:20, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/burt-septimus-179 - this URL has Yinnietharra .. but it is still spelt wrong (i) but we are a little closer.

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/content/2010/s2939195.htm - This URL has the correct spelling.

http://www.realestate.com.au/property-livestock-wa-carnarvon-7318420

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/predator-explosion-dogs-the-bush/story-e6frg6z6-1225889672128

Septimusearle (talk) 04:26, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

None of the pages that mention Yinnietharra also state that Septimus Burt owned it. Even the Septimus Burt obituary says that George lived there, but not that Yinnietharra was the same property that Septimus owned. Yes, you might reasonably say that it is likely to be the same property (ie more likely than Septimus owning one property called Yinniethanna and George living at a different property with a very similar name) - but that would be synthesis, which we are not allowed to do. As well as the likelihood of a misspelling we must consider the possibility that the property was renamed at some point. If it was, the current name is irrelevant - what matters is the name when Septimus Burt owned it (because that is what the article is about). Although if we can establish (with an RS) that the property was subsequently renamed (even after S Burt's death), I would certainly note that fact in the article.

That is all straight forward to me..There was a transfer of ownership of Yinnetharra from Sep to George.

Septimusearle (talk) 14:24, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

"... you just have to trust me ... " Unfortunately Wikipedia does not work that way. I refer you to WP:V, WP:RS, WP:OR and WP:SYNTH.

A relevant quote from Crossroads would probably help (which is why I asked for one last time). Something stating that Septimus Burt owned the specific property with the specific name, and ideally something mentioning any rename or misspelling, so that we can add a note to the article explaining the discrepancy.

A copy of Burt's will would certainly help. I'm not sure of the copyright issues with putting a coy of the will on Wikipedia, so probably best to send it off-wiki. I was going to send you an e-mail (with my address) via Toolbox, E-mail this user, but it doesn't appear on your page; I presume because you don't have an e-mail address registered and enabled. However I do. Wikipedia's email facility doesn't support attachments, but you could either:

• send me an e-mail with your email address in it, so that I can send you my address directly, then you can send me the scanned image. Or:
• Enter and enable an e-mail address in your Wikipedia profile, so that I can send you my e-mail address (via Special:EmailUser), then you can send me the image.

(Multiple steps I know, but it means that our e-mail addresses are disclosed only to each other, not the whole world.)

If possible, I would appreciate a scan of the relevant pages of the book, as this helps put the quotes in context. (Also a scan of the title page showing publication details, ISBN etc would be good - it will help me construct a complete ref citation.)

I am quite happy to accept that the article needs to change if we can provide suitable sources that demonstrate (without SYNTH) that Yinnietharra is correct, and that (by implication) the ADB and Biographical Register of MPs references are wrong. But it does need to be a strong and verifiable source to repudiate the existing reputable sources. As well as Burt's will, do you have access to any copies of land titles or similar, with the property name and Burt's name on them? Mitch Ames (talk) 11:42, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

There is no copyright issues with the Will Mitch- it is my familys and we have no problem telling Wiki what the facts are.

I will send you the Will and Crossroads and the whole Burt family advocacy if you like.

cheers

Septimusearle (talk) 14:24, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Your candour is acknowledged, but does not change the core policies of WP:V, WP:RS, WP:OR. I'm hoping that something specific in the will or Crossroads will resolve the matter, so I'd appreciate a copy. I checked your page, but I still can't e-mail you there, so my above instructions for e-mail still apply. Thanks. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:17, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

I've found another reference (Muir's Forrest Family) with the correct spelling, so I've changed it to Yinnetharra again. Quoting from Muir:

Septiumus Burt established all his children on stations in the north-west. For some time, George worked on the Brickhouse Station ... He then set out ... to establish ... Yinnetharra Station ...

I'd still like to see another authoritative (published etc, per WP:RS) reference for this spelling. Other things being equal an independent reader/editor would be more likely to believe the ADB and Biographical Register of MPs to be more reliable (and thus correct) than Muir, and assume that latter was wrong. So I'd still invite you to provide a relevant quote from Crossroads. Mitch Ames (talk) 10:22, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

References added 2011-08-22/23

Septimusearle, you recently added some new references as inline text. I've formatted them, but could you please check and confirm that my changes are correct.

Also could you let us know whether "Burt Family Papers" is the same reference (eg a subset of) as "Burt Family Papers and Personal Notebook". If so, I'll combine the two. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:37, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is Septimusearle (talk) 04:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I've merged the refs. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:23, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Too much historical detail in in the lead?

I don't think we need this much family history (well referenced though it is!):

His family had been resident in the West Indies since 1635, primarily involved in administration of the Leeward Islands and in sugar plantations. Burt's great-great-great-uncle, William Mathew Burt, was Governor-General (1776-1781) of the British Leeward Islands during the American War of Independence

in the lead section.

Possible options are:

• Delete those sentences, and change the lead sentence to:

The Hon Septimus Burt KC ... was ... the son of Sir Archibald Burt and great-great-great-nephew of William Mathew Burt

• Add a "Family history" section? Do we have any more than those two sentences?

Thoughts, anyone? Mitch Ames (talk) 13:49, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

A huge amount more Mitch..A family history section would be worthwile. Septimusearle (talk) 04:29, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

So create one. However, I do recommend that you initially create the contents, including refs, in a sandbox on or under your user page (here's an example of mine: User:Mitch_Ames/Sandbox), with a link to it from here. This will give us a chance to comment on it and tidy up refs etc before it hits the main article. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:37, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Also (noting my comments in #Louisa Fanny Hare's family below) remember that Burt's family history is relevant, but his wife's is generally not. (Unless she's notable enough for her own article.) Mitch Ames (talk) 12:44, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Louisa Fanny Hare's family

Septimusearle added some genealogy for Burt's wife. It's interesting, but I've trimmed it significantly, because the article is about Burt, not his wife, so I don't think that much information about her is relevant here.

I've also added cites (Australian Dictionary of Biography, Biographical Register of MPs) for her family, because they were not mentioned in the previous single reference (The Bicentennial Dictionary of Western Australians) for that paragraph.

I've deleted the "-Naylor" because none of the existing references mention it. Is there a reliable source for the hyphenated surname? Mitch Ames (talk) 03:11, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I have again removed excessive information about the Hare family. The article is about Burt, not his wife. Septimusearle, could you please discuss the matter here, rather than simply re-adding it, if you disagree. And/or do other editors have an opinion on the matter? Mitch Ames (talk) 11:48, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

The family is Hare-Naylor- Gustavus E C Hare just thought it was a potracted name to use and informally stopped using it. I must disclose, i think, Mitch, however reluctantly, my identity.. My G G G grandfather is G E C Hare.. so my G G grandfather is Septimus Burt, so you can probably now understand my expert knowledge in all things Burt and Hare-Naylor - in this case. I grew hearing about Master Hare- the famous painting by Sir Joshua Reynolds on display in the Louvre. Master Hare (Francis George Hare-Naylor) is the brother of G E C Hare.

http://policewahistory.org.au/HTML_Pages/Hare-line.html

http://haretreegenealogy.blogspot.com/2009/04/hare-02_4364.html

Septimusearle (talk) 05:34, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Our article says: Burt married Louisa Fanny Hare (daughter of G E C Hare-Naylor ...) in 1872
However http://policewahistory.org.au/HTML_Pages/Hare-line.html says: Louisa, daughter of G.E.C.Hare, married George Braithwaite Phillips
Did she marry twice? Or have I misunderstood something. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

No Peter Canole- if i remember his name rightly, has it wrong. He is the WA Police historian and he just hasnt changed his records. Its another example of someone with incorrect facts. Louisa Fanny Hare, my G G Grandmother married only once and that was to my G G Grandfather Sep Burt.

Septimusearle (talk) 14:29, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Hare-Naylor reference

Septimusearle, do you have any more detail about the "Hare-Naylor genealogical records" used as a reference for Hare-Naylor's name? (Ie being Hare-Naylor, rather than just Hare, as per the other refs.) Are they in JS Battye Library, Perth (as per the Burt family papers)? Somewhere else? (Online would be good). Anything at all that would help someone verify them, if they felt so inclined? Mitch Ames (talk) 11:54, 28 October 2011 (UTC)