Talk:Semiz Mehmed Pasha

Why Albanian?

He had nothing to do with Albanian People. He was a Member of the Ottoman Dynasty...Sultanzade was his Title: the son of an ottoman princess... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.248.151.199 (talk) 20:06, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

His Father was born in Kosovo but of Turkish Family, see Turks in Kosovo Article, and his Mother was a Sultana, yes...so he was both...Fatherside from Kosovo and Motherside a member of the Ottoman Dynasty.

Dilek2 (talk) 04:24, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Family Tree

I often read about that he was the descendant of Mihrimah Sultan...nonsense...

Grandchildren of an Ottoman Sultana have no Title, only the direct Sons and Daughters of her.

A Sultnazade was and is the direct son of a Sultana, and a Hanimsultana is and was the direct daughter of a Sultana.

But the Children and any descendants of a Sultanzade and Hanimsultan had no Title.

So Mihrimah Sultana had a daugther named Ayshe Hanimsultana...her Children and Grandget's had no more a Title.

Please read the Ottoman Title's and History.

About his Life...

He was born January 1th 1603.

His Father was executed in 16th October 1603, and his Mother died at 15th May 1605.

So he was a little orphan Boy of two years, adopted by the Grandson of Mihrimah Sultan, "Abdurrahman Bey" and grew up in his Family.

Mehmed Pasha's Father was indeed of Turks of Kosovo origin.

His Mother was Ayşe Sultan, a daughter of Murad III.

So he was a Sultanzade (son of a Sultana). Dilek2 (talk) 22:47, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Got a source for any of that? Edward321 (talk) 23:58, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Edward...a Sultanzade you can google and you know what it means... No Greatgrandson of a ottoman princess had this title...only her son.

217.248.151.199 (talk) 00:02, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

As noted before, Dilek2, Wikipedia policy is that you need to provide reliable sources for your edits. Facebook, the source of your haplogroup claims is not a reliable source. Most web pages are not reliable sources. Please read Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources instead of just posting things you read somewhere on the net. Ravenswing spelled this out very clearly on the 14th, including possible consequences for you if you don't start following Wikipedia guidelines. Edward321 (talk) 04:31, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I created this article in June 2011. It may need improvements. But all contributions should be sourced. The original claim about his origin "Mihrimah Sultana , the daughter of Süleyman I was one of his grand mothers. Also two former grand viziers Rüstem Pasha and Cigalazade Yusuf Sinan Pasha were his grandfathers" was sourced. Dilek's claim which states that "He was born to Yemişçi Hasan Pasha, who was from the Turks in Kosovo, and Ayşe Sultan, a daughter of Murad III" is not sourced. Thus, I am going to revert her contributions. But still Dilek is wellcome to contribute to the article, provided that she supports her contributions with reliable sources. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 10:10, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

A Sultanzade is never any Grandget of a Ottoman Prences...Sultanzade and Hanimsultan only the direct Children of an Ottoman Princess... Mihrimah Sultan's daughter was Ayse Hümasah Hanimsultan, her son Abdurrahman Bey...Not A Sultanzade...so Mehmed can't be the Title of Sultanzade. What have you proofen?...Do you talk with Ilber Ortayli? Do you show the Topkapi Archiv?. Why you do not read about the Title in the Ottoman Dynasty? No Grandget of a female Member have a Title... The Children of Sultanzades and Hanimsultans have no any Title.

Also: Abdürrahman dead in 1597...look his Türbe. Sultanzade Semiz mehmed Pasha was born 1603, so he can't be his real Father. If you claimed, He was a Greatgrandson of Mihrimah Sultan with the Title Sultanzade,well than...He must be the only one...

Dilek2 (talk) 20:09, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Category:Royal families Category:Oghuz Turks Category:1281 establishments Category:Ottoman dynasty Category:Turkic dynasties Category:European royal families

Theory about his title

If a reliable source, eg an academic historian, is making this suggestion, we can use it and attribute it to the source. But Wikipedia is not a place for our own 'theories', see WP:NOR. Dougweller (talk) 20:57, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Own? what own?

I wrote not my own meaning

Dilek2 (talk) 21:15, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Then it needs a source that meets our criteria at WP:RS. Dougweller (talk) 05:25, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Here a link with the Ottoma Title's, all listed and all Sources.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020418161219/http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Turkey/turkey.htm

Dilek2 (talk) 15:12, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

We can use that site for titles, but never for anything to do with people living today, and I don't see what it has to do with the bit I deleted. Dougweller (talk) 20:24, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

About his Title

Because Mihrimah Sultana , the daughter of Süleyman I was one of his grand mothers. Also two former grand viziers Rüstem Pasha and Cigalazade Yusuf Sinan Pasha were his grandfathers.

But, if he was a Greatgrandchild of Mihrimah Sultan, he can't be the Title Sultanzade. Also his alleged father "Abdürrahman Bey" where was the Grandson of Mihrimah Sultan is dead in 1597, six years before he was born. Sultanzade was and is a' direct Son of a Sultana, the title borne by the sons of Ottoman Imperial Princesses. The sons of Ottoman Imperial Princesses, excluded from the Ottoman imperial succession, were only styled Sultanzade (given name) Bey-Efendi, i.e. Son of a Princess of the Ottoman Dynasty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nalanidil (talk • contribs) 01:17, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

References

Once more about his Parentes

According to Alderson and Sureya the parentes of Sultanzade were:

mother- daughter of daughter of Ayse Humasah Sultan father- son of Ayse Humasah Sultan

There are more details.

Just check this links:

1) Anthony Dolphin Alderson (1956). The Structure of the Ottoman Dynasty (PDF). Oxford: Clarendon Press., table XXX.

2) Süreyya, Mehmed. Sicill-i Osmani (PDF). Vol. vol 4. pp. 1045-1046. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help):

Sadrazam Ahmed Paşazade Abdurrahman Bey'in  oğludur. Annesi Cagalazâde Sinan  Paşa'nm kızı olduğundan gençliğinde kapıcıbaşı olarak "CivanKapıcıbaşı" denmiştir. 

You may use google-translation.

--Удивленный1 (talk) 13:18, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Also according to Alderson sultanzade is a title "given to the sons of a sultan's daughters or their grandsons" (Alderson, Anthony Dolphin (1956). The Structure of the Ottoman Dynasty (PDF). Oxford: Clarendon Press. p. 119.).

--Удивленный1 (talk) 13:40, 12 March 2017 (UTC)