Talk:Semi-metro

Merge with light rail

I am sorry but I am still failing to grasp why this couldn't be a section of "light rail" - this page refers to sections of light rail that are conflict free? I don't think this is a widespread concept or different enough from light rail to merit it's own page LegalSmeagolian (talk) 22:52, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello LegalSmeagolian, one of the reasons I created this page was the discussion on the talk page of List of premetro systems. Porto Metro for instance was removed from the list, which is correct as there are no plans to transform the Porto system (LRT with tunnels) into rapid transit. I'm planning to create a List of semi-metro systems where all light rail systems belong that have sections that are completely conflict free, like the Porto Metro. Indeed it could be included in the light rail article, yet because semi-metro is a subclass of light rail (like premetro, Stadtbahn and Karlsruhe model), I think it deserves its own article as well. KatVanHuis (talk) 18:02, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I guess my issue is the vast majority of LRT systems (atleast in the US) have conflict-free sections, hence I don't really understand the distinction. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 18:27, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for you quick reply. So far in the U.S. I've only found 9 systems: Boston, Buffalo, L.A., Newark, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Saint Louis, S.F. and Seattle. I'm not sure that's even the majority. Germany has a dozen systems, other countries each less than a handful. KatVanHuis (talk) 20:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Portland has conflict free sections of MAX, Dallas DART has many conflict free sections, as does Sacramento. It is pretty prototypical of light rail to run with conflict free sections, that is what makes it Light Rail rather than a streetcar system. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 21:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm guessing that you mean the sections around Washington Park and Sunset Transit Center in Portland and then the Cityplace, Mockingbird and the Airport sections in Dallas. Nice finds, I will add them to the list in the future; thanks. Sacramento seems to be more of Train-tram[1] style system.

Unfortunately (as I think it's a little confusing) many sources consider streetcars to be a type of light rail. And worldwide roughly 300 light rail systems exist, of these only a few (about 11 in the U.S, a dozen in Germany and a handful elsewhere) have semi-metro/subway-surface lines. KatVanHuis (talk) 11:47, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Tunnels (or elevated sections for that matter) may be comparatively rare on Light Rail - but sections of separate right of way are not. If you look at Light Rail networks from the 1970s onwards - or many extensions of older networks built since then - they will have a percentage of independent right of way of 50% or more in many cases - most cases outside North America. 2001:A62:1453:5602:A95A:9762:7DDC:387D (talk) 12:36, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Vuchic describes three levels:

1. street running

2. separate right of way (not independent/with level road-crossings)

3. independent right of way (conflict free/without level road-crossings)

The last one is rare and forms the semi-metro category. KatVanHuis (talk) 09:14, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Virtually all West German systems that are called "Stadtbahn" have some of 3.

As do a lot of Anglophone "light rail" system. The question imho is more how muchmof a given system is 2. or 3.? 2001:A62:1591:C802:1D72:F80B:F5FC:C466 (talk) 20:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The German "Stadtbahn" systems indeed have some of 3, and are therefore all semi-metro sytems.

Having type 2 infrastructure is perfect to qualify for light rails systems, regardless of how much a given system has. KatVanHuis (talk) 21:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

So what is the difference between Stadtbahn and semi-metro? 2001:A62:15A2:9F02:2536:B051:4CD3:554C (talk) 15:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The 1960s & 1970s U-Stadtbahn systems all have high platforms in their tunnel stations, semi-metro can have either low, intermediate or high platforms in their tunnel stations. KatVanHuis (talk) 15:54, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we should not be fooled by the implications of a marketing term. Neither "pre-metro" nor "U-Stadtbahn" these days actually mean or imply the future conversion to "full" metro. Even though they were used with that implication in the past. 2001:A62:1453:5602:A95A:9762:7DDC:387D (talk) 12:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

The sources in this article are international organisations, national government bodies or research reports and never marketing names from local public transport companies. KatVanHuis (talk) 09:16, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

What do those sources say? Do they give examples for systems that actually were converted to "full metro"? Because other than the odd tunnel or El being transformed from "interim" light rail to metro use, I could not name a single system. Can you?

And: the city of x calling their system "pre-metro" and implying a future conversion to full metro (or worse yet, just using the term "metro" for something that isn't one) is marketing imho - even if the source is "official" (i.e. government or studies by NGOs using the government coined terminology) 2001:A62:1591:C802:1D72:F80B:F5FC:C466 (talk) 20:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

All those sources say something like: "tram infrastructure that can easily be converted to heavy rail/metro use". I can name several, Rio being one of them.

And: so we're not using the cities' marketing claims to create definitions. KatVanHuis (talk) 22:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The word "semi" does not appear once in your link. "Pre-metro", however, does. 2001:A62:15A2:9F02:2536:B051:4CD3:554C (talk) 15:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm aware of that. But no official definition mentions semi-metro to be converted to full metro. Summarising your question: can you name one system that actually was converted to "full metro"? KatVanHuis (talk) 16:01, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand your question. My contention is precisely that no system of that kind – whether called "Stadtbahn" or "premetro" or anything else – was ever converted to full metro. At least not in its entirety.... 2001:A62:15A2:9F02:C55F:9663:6E67:E840 (talk) 19:59, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Why should it be in its entirety? As long as full metro infrastructure was first temporarily used by trams. This is the case for two separate tram tunnels in Brussels, and with infrastructure in Rio, Vienna and Frankfurt, just to name a few. KatVanHuis (talk) 20:01, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Tyne and Wear metro crossings

I know this isn’t probably the right place to put this but I know that there is 8 level crossings on the TW Metro. These are at: (Excluding Pedestrian only crossings or depot crossings)

1, Callerton Parkway

2, Bank Foot

3, Kingston Park

4, Fawdon

5, Howdon

6, Benton Road (B1298) (Near Biddick Hall)

7, Tile shed Lane

8, East Boldon Traingoodcarbad (talk) 18:38, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Does this term exist outside Wikipedia?

I'm sorry, but how common is this term outside Wikipedia?

Also: I do not think the attempted distinction between "Stadtbahn" and pre-metro by using the criterion "the latter will one day become a metro" works. Back when Stadtbahn-networks were first built, they were built with the "promise" of eventually having a "full" metro. And pre-metros like Charleroi Premetro are - I think - by now universally acknowledged to never become "full" metro. 2001:A62:1453:5602:A95A:9762:7DDC:387D (talk) 12:28, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct: the term does not exist in "the real world". It seems to me ratheran attempt by someone to coin a new term. The article should be merged with light rail or metro. 178.255.168.151 (talk) 12:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The term semi-metro exists since the 1960s, being roughly sixty years old. The term subway-surface line is even older. KatVanHuis (talk) 09:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

So who was using the term in the 1960s and what were they meaning by it? And what was the difference between that usage and the usage of similar terms like "Light Rail" or "Stadtbahn" or "Pre-Metro"? And how and by whom is the term used today? 2001:A62:1591:C802:1D72:F80B:F5FC:C466 (talk) 20:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

A. Newspapers about the Brussels tram network were using the term in the 1960s and they were talking about plans for new tramtunnels. B. Light Rail was coined by Vuchic in 1972 and he described tram systems with type 2 infrastructure, possibly mixed with either type 1 or 3 (or both). Stadtbahn describes semi-metros with level-boarding (using specially designed trams with folding steps). Pre-Metro: semi-metro designed to be upgraded to full metro. C. Semi-metro is used today (this century) in the same way as sixty years ago by researchers and planners. KatVanHuis (talk) 22:14, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Having folding steps is ipso facto the opposite of level boarding, isn't it? 2001:A62:15A2:9F02:2536:B051:4CD3:554C (talk) 15:12, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Those folding steps are often not build-in anymore with the newly ordered Stadtbahn vehicles, just because of many lines are currently rebuild to fully high-platform standards.

The original vehicles had folding steps to make sure these vehicles could be used with old/existing tram stops without high platforms or none at all. The level boarding was only possible in the new tunnel stations. KatVanHuis (talk) 16:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Didn't some tunnel stations have low platforms? Or am I confusing that with low floor trams running in high platform tunnels? 2001:A62:15A2:9F02:C55F:9663:6E67:E840 (talk) 20:00, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I’m not aware of any… But I’m curious to hear more about it! KatVanHuis (talk) 20:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The Charleroi Premetro was never officially named premetro. In the first years (1976 onwards) it was simply called «semi-métro» and from the 1980s onwards Métro Léger de Charleroi. In Brussels the premetro is being converted to metro (line 3) as we speak. KatVanHuis (talk) 09:24, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Family tree

Sometimes it can be difficult to grasp a term within an abundance of related terms. I created a family tree for a better overview. Should I add it to the article as well?

Guided tranist Light rail Tram City tram _ Interurban _ Rubber-tyred tram _ Tram-train Mixed with railways _ On former railways _ Semi-metro Premetro _ U-Stadtbahn _ Conflict free transit Light metro VAL-systems _ Systems with LRVs _ Light Monorail _ Full metro Rubber-tyred metro _ Steel wheeled metro _ Monorail _

Family of guided urban transport

KatVanHuis (talk) 12:16, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

The 322-pages book solely about light rail named "Light Rail Transit: A State of the Art Review" states on page 9 that concerning Pre-metro: "Certain design features distinguish these systems from semi-metro or conventional light rail systems, e.g., greater radii of curvature, lesser grades, provisions of later adjustment of station platform heights to conventional rapid transit levels, and provisions for installation of power distributions and control systems suitable to rapid transit operations." KatVanHuis (talk) 12:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

References