Talk:Seigneur

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Merge tag

Discussion at Talk:Lord#Merge with Seigneur proposal

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Lord#Merge with Seigneur proposal. Peaceray (talk) 04:46, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

These comments have been copied to Talk:Lord#Merge with Seigneur proposal where it is likely to get a broader discussion. Please do not alter the contents of this {{talk quote block}}. Please add any further discussion at Talk:Lord#Merge with Seigneur proposal.
An editor has tagged this article for a merge without setting out the case on this talk page. However, the tag comment says that "it does not make sense to me that this is not part of the Lord article, as this is to what this term translates."
However, just because seigneur appears in a dictionary translated as 'lord' is not sufficient reason to merge the article. This article is about the French use of the word in their culture and history and it is not the same as the use of the very general word "lord" in English. In a similar way we have separate articles for senhor and signoria. As the discussion was not properly initiated, I propose to revert the tag. Bermicourt (talk) 23:12, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree. In Canada, where the French seigneurial system had been introduced, the term seigneur is not translated in English. https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/seigneurial-system

Sorry, I thought it would be obvious that lord is a pretty general & encompassing concept in English, even if there is a formal title of Lord among the British. Hence, we have Lord Delaware, Lord Voldemort, Lord of Milan, The Lord of the Rings, The Lords of Flatbush, & etc. The English title & seigneur are but variants on the same concept. The Lord article is overly Anglo-centric. Both of these are flavors of what at least American English would consider as the same concept.

Is there a particular reason why seignor would not fit into the definition, as the lead sentence for 'Lord says, "... an appellation for a person or deity who has authority, control, or power over others acting like a master, a chief, or a ruler."?

As per the Wikidata item for seigneur lists the description, in various languages, as a title of nobility. All of those Wikidata language variants listed for seigneur translate into the English lord. If there are specific aspects to seigneur relating to the French & Canadian use of the title, then they should be enumerated in a separate section, just as the British specific use of the title should be in its own section.

The Wiktionary definition of seigneur for English, French, & Middle French each list lord in their primary definition.

I am not convinced that there is a historical usage of seignor in either English or French before the European colonization of the Americas that is significantly different from the general usage of lord. If we are concerned about the Canadian system, we should rename this article to something more specific & adjust it for that.

Peaceray (talk) 04:28, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

I see it differently. Leaving aside that Wikipedia is not supposed to cite other Wikis as sources, this article is about the use of the word seigneur in its contexts, only one of which is 'lord' and then only in the sense used in French-speaking countries. This is quite normal Wiki practice. Just because a word is commonly translated as X doesn't mean it is identical with X. As a translator, I'm only too aware that it often isn't. We frequently have to translate words as an aid to sense only. In this case, the word seigneur in its lordly sense, is much more precise that the English word.

All that said, you flag up an important issue, but there may be another solution i.e. to ensure this article is strictly about the use of the word seigneur in its French-speaking contexts and doesn't start spreading either into the generic or specific use of the word 'lord' in its English contexts. In other words, it needs to be bounded. HTH. Bermicourt (talk) 18:27, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

This discussion ended correctly although it underscores that the current article is completely mistaken that seigneur is "almost exclusively" used to discuss French lords. That very much isn't the case among historians and scholars, let alone the general public. — LlywelynII 00:02, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]