Talk:Seal of Massachusetts

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Heraldry and vexillology

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Republic of Massachusetts

From mass.gov: [1]

The State Seal, adopted by Governor John Hancock and the Council on December 13, 1780, and made official by the General Court on June 4, 1885, is circular and bears a representation of the arms of the Commonwealth encircled with the words, "Sigillum Reipublicae Massachusettensis" (meaning "Seal of the Republic of Massachusetts"). The final form of the seal was determined by a statewide contest. The arms, according to legislative enactment, consist of "a shield having a blue field or surface with an Indian thereon, dressed in a shirt and moccasins, holding in his right hand a bow, and in his left hand an arrow, pointed downward, all of gold; and, in the upper corner of the field, above his right arm, a silver star with five points. The crest is a wreath of blue and gold, on which, in gold, is a right arm, bent at the elbow, clothed and ruffled, with the hand grasping a broadsword."

The shape of the shield is called "Plantagenet." The Native American model used was of the Algonguin nation. The arrow points downward to indicate the Indian is peaceful and the star indicates that Massachusetts was one of the original thirteen states; it was the sixth. The sword illustrates the Latin motto that is written in gold on a blue ribbon around the bottom of the shield: "Ense petit placidam sub liberate quietem." This is the second of two lines written about 1659 by Algernon Sydney, English soldier and politician, in the Book of Mottoes in the King's Library in Copenhagen, Denmark. It was adopted in 1775 by the Provincial Congress and means, "By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under liberty." [2]

Reipublica

I have a feeling this has already been argued over, but couldn't Latin 'Reipublica' be translated as either 'republic' or 'commonwealth' (or in a stretch even 'state')? IIRC, the english word commonwealth was originally a calque of the latin-derived word republic, originally meaning public thing. IMO, if the two translations are felt to be equal, we should choose the more applicable one, here, Commonwealth, as that is the official name in English. Xyzzyva 20:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree here. The only proper translation of republicae is republic, even if the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts designates the name of the government as Commonwealth. --TimothyDexter (talk) 01:09, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So how would you translate commonwealth from English to Latin? I don't possess a printed Latin-English-Latin dictionary, but at least this online dictionary[3] translates Commonwealth as res publica (of which the genitive is reipublicae). --89.27.8.236 (talk) 22:19, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You can look at it another way: 'commonwealth' is already an anglicized version of 'republic'. --TimothyDexter (talk) 22:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and thus "Seal of the Commonwealth" is an accurate translation of "Sigillum Reipublicae", though it could be translated as "Seal of the Republic" as well. --89.27.8.236 (talk) 01:51, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. 'Republic' and 'commonwealth' have different historical meanings. I understand that Massachusetts styles itself as 'commonwealth', just as Montana styles itself as 'state', but both states have republican forms of government. What's more, as noted above, Massachusetts itself translates 'republicae' as 'of the republic'. --TimothyDexter (talk) 19:45, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the OP. By using the genititve case (possesive) reipublicae instead of Respublicae it is clear that it is the sense of Commonwealth that is represented in latin. This was not unique as the leaders of the independence movement were expert in the politial precedent of Cromwell's Commonwealth of England.Slepowron (talk) 23:45, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My Latin is very rusty (and always has been), so please correct me if I am wrong. But wouldn't Respublicae be the plural of either the nominative or the vocative cases, neither of which really make sense in the phrase? In other words, the use of the genitive is meant to show the relationship between the seal and the seal's origin (the republic); I don't think that it makes the meaning that you suggest clear. I do however think that your historical argument makes sense. I suppose we need to decide whether or not we want a literal translation (as we have now) or a more historical translation (one more in line with a Cromwellian commonwealth). I guess the question now is: was the English commonwealth translated into latin as a "republic"? This is for the moment beyond my Googling skills. --TimothyDexter (talk) 14:41, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

about the explanation for the star...

How does a "white star with five points" ... "signify... Massachusetts' admission as the 6th US State"? 198.49.180.254 22:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Because the 50 stars (with five points) on the US flag signify the 50 states, Mass. is claiming hers. - The Talking Sock talk contribs 17:59, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- What's the source of this claim? Mass. ratified the constitution after the seal was made.—Markles 14:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Seal Depicted Here is Wrong

There is a misspelling in the SVG file that was here: File:Seal_of_the_State_of_Massachusetts.svg. it should say "Reipublicae" it instead says "Republicae". The correct seal is Depicted here:

http://www.sec.state.ma.us/cis/cismaf/mf1a.htm

I've changed the mage in the article to the old png version. I don't have the skills to fix it. Can someone please fix it? I've already asked the original creator to no avail.

The Talking Sock talk contribs 22:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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